Vickie R

This week, Author Vickie Rubin opens up about the emotional impact of receiving a diagnosis for her child and the anxiety she experienced as a parent. She also highlights the importance of a strong support system and the transformative power of acceptance and advocacy. Ultimately, the message of resilience and hope is instilled.

Visit Vickie's website to learn more and order her book, Raising Jess: A Story of Hope.

Buy the Book

Takeaways

• Life can take unexpected turns, and having a child with a disability does not mean that life is ruined.
• Parenting a child with special needs requires patience, love, and acceptance.
• Building a strong support system is crucial for navigating the challenges of raising a child with a disability.
• Siblings of children with disabilities may have unique experiences and concerns, but open communication and inclusion can help foster a positive family dynamic. Community and support are crucial in the journey of raising a child with disabilities.
• Raising a child with disabilities can have a transformative impact on the entire family.
• Siblings' experiences and perspectives are important and should be acknowledged.
• Maintaining perspective and priorities is essential in navigating the challenges.
• Seeking a diagnosis can be a long and challenging journey.
• Joining supportive and positive communities and support groups is beneficial.
• Mental health support is crucial for parents and caregivers.
• Finding joy amidst the challenges is possible.
• Resilience and hope are key in facing the difficulties and embracing the journey.

Transcript

Chelsea (00:08.161)
Hello! Today I'm here with Vicki. Vicki, how are you?

Vickie Rubin (00:12.354)
Good, how are you and thank you for having me.

Chelsea (00:15.374)
I'm good. Thank you for joining us. I'm excited to have you on today. I'm gonna jump right into it. I would love it if you could tell me a little bit about who you are and who you were before you became a mom.

Vickie Rubin (00:36.406)
Okay, that's a great starting question. So, right now I am a self-described mom of three, Nana of three, author, wife, I should have wife, author, and an advocate for individuals and families of individuals who have a, you

Chelsea (00:39.715)
Yeah

Chelsea (00:50.292)
I'm sorry.

Chelsea (00:55.33)
Hahaha!

Vickie Rubin (01:06.69)
disabilities, typically intellectual disabilities. I... I'm going to stop for a second. Do you want me to talk more about like my career at this point? Like who I was now or I'll tell you who I was before? Okay.

Chelsea (01:24.179)
Let yeah, let's do before and then we'll and then we'll jump back into your story.

Vickie Rubin (01:29.682)
Okay, so who I was before was a college student who graduated from the University of Miami. And I got my degree in elementary education, had no desire to work in special education because I didn't think I would have the patience. Karma.

Chelsea (01:52.93)
Same.

Chelsea (01:57.082)
Mm-hmm. Ha!

Vickie Rubin (02:00.567)
My daughter taught me a lot about patience and I eventually got my master's in special education, but who I was before, my priorities were very different. They weren't, I don't want to use the word shallow, but you know I was you know 20 before 24 before I had kids and you know I wasn't really

Chelsea (02:18.248)
Mm.

Vickie Rubin (02:27.566)
thinking about big picture and life. It was more like in the present, what's going on? Right, and all that changed. All that changed after children. Mm.

Chelsea (02:32.469)
Yeah.

Chelsea (02:36.622)
Totally, that's what you do when you're in your early 20s.

Chelsea (02:44.983)
What sort of things brought you joy prior to having kids? Like what were some of the things that you, if it was like a Friday night and you had no plans and you were gonna do something, what were you gonna do?

Vickie Rubin (03:00.258)
So what was fun then was, you know, I met my husband at 18, so it was usually going out with him, going out to eat, certainly having more than one drink and maybe going and hearing a band or dancing and, you know, those days you would take a nap before you went out. So, you know, you could stay out really late.

Chelsea (03:10.934)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (03:15.499)
I'm gonna go.

Chelsea (03:18.979)
Mmm.

Chelsea (03:26.243)
Yeah!

Vickie Rubin (03:29.13)
Now you go home before 9 o'clock. But I always looked forward to the weekends. That was something I really, really looked forward to. I didn't have a set career before I had children. So I wasn't really focused on work then.

Chelsea (03:34.61)
Yeah.

Chelsea (03:39.471)
Mm.

Chelsea (03:51.731)
Mm-hmm. Just having fun, living life.

Vickie Rubin (03:56.39)
Having fun, I remember my big thing, because I moved here. I started in Long Island, went to the University of Miami, and then my husband moved me, sloughed me, to Western New York. And I didn't really know anybody. And I remember every day, I would decide, what am I going to cook today? So during the week when we were home, I would.

Chelsea (04:18.798)
Mmm.

Vickie Rubin (04:22.542)
try to make these elaborate dinners and that was really fun for me because at that point I didn't really have any friends and I didn't really know what to do here. It was very different than the other places that I had lived.

Chelsea (04:33.802)
Yeah.

Chelsea (04:37.45)
Yeah, and I'm sure that will play a part in your story too. But so that's great. That's a great way to bring us to what was that journey into parenthood like for you when you and your partner you and your husband decided, guess it's time for kids? Or is that what happened?

Vickie Rubin (04:58.594)
I was just thinking about this the other night. I was thinking it was probably New Year's Eve, 1981. And I remember, no, it had to be 1980. And I remember the two of us said, this is the year we're gonna have a baby. And I did, I got pregnant. I got pregnant in 1981. My daughter, Jessica, our daughter Jessica was born in 1982.

Chelsea (05:15.363)
Mm.

Vickie Rubin (05:28.979)
And it wasn't a struggle to have a child. Her birth experience was a whole other story. But the getting pregnant part, for me, that was really easy. It just kind of happened. And I remember being.

Chelsea (05:38.073)
Yeah.

the getting pregnant part just happened.

Chelsea (05:49.888)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (05:57.982)
I remember every morning waking up and saying to myself, I'm pregnant. Like I loved being pregnant. I know a lot of people, including family members who really don't like that experience, but I was excited about being pregnant. I just loved. But during my pregnancy, at the end of my pregnancy, I started to have some issues which made it a little more difficult.

Chelsea (06:05.431)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (06:24.77)
But in general, most of the nine months, I was like, yes, this is fun and how is it gonna be? And it was 1982, they weren't doing all the different testing and you didn't have, you know, you just, you got pregnant and you had a baby. It wasn't like it is now with all the testing and with my other two children, I certainly had more testing.

Chelsea (06:35.265)
Yeah.

Chelsea (06:46.586)
Yeah. So take us through, take us through that journey. Your pregnancy was you kind of got to live in the in the pregnancy bubble for a while. And then and then we come to babies do babies on the way. Take us through that experience.

Vickie Rubin (07:05.998)
So about a week before I was due, I had a rash. And I kept calling my doctor who said, baby is settling. All right. I even went to the pharmacist. Can you look at my rash? I think they gave me calamine. OK. So I go into labor. And I get to the first hospital.

Chelsea (07:11.662)
Mm.

Chelsea (07:19.202)
Whatever that means.

Chelsea (07:27.994)
Mm.

Vickie Rubin (07:36.702)
And throughout the beginning of my experience, I was talking about this rash. And I was kind of being blown off until one nurse looked at it and said, you know, that looks like chickenpox to me. And so, um, I'm going to preface it with it was Easter Sunday. So, so, so it was Easter Sunday. There weren't a whole lot of regulars there.

Chelsea (07:51.747)
Mmm.

Chelsea (07:58.847)
Oh man.

Chelsea (08:05.783)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (08:06.686)
And the doctor had to do a biopsy of one of my pox. And I have such a clear vision. I was going through labor, and he was cutting the pox. And I remember not really feeling that as much because I was going through a labor pain. And then they came back, and they said, yeah, you have chicken pox. This hospital was a chicken pox.

Chelsea (08:19.758)
Oh.

Vickie Rubin (08:35.354)
unable to deal with that. My husband was told by a resident, it's very likely we could lose your wife and your child. You're going to have to move to Children's Hospital. There was a special serum that they were going to give to our baby. I didn't know what our baby was at the time. To give to our baby.

Chelsea (09:00.79)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (09:03.038)
And it was, as I said, Easter Sunday and my father-in-law had a drive. I mean, this all sounds like a movie. My father-in-law had a drive to the cancer hospital, which had this serum and it closed at two o'clock, the pharmacy. And so he had a drive. I mean, it wasn't even done like officially. He was like, what if he dropped the serum? Whatever. I don't know. And I wasn't taken by ambulance to children's hospital. My husband drove me. So.

Chelsea (09:09.996)
Yeah.

Chelsea (09:23.99)
Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (09:32.726)
I drove to, he drove me to Children's Hospital. My father-in-law got the serum. Once I got into Children's Hospital of Buffalo, they were like, oh, you're okay. We can deal with this. It was so calming. They put me in isolation. I wasn't allowed to see anybody. And it was, everyone knows what it feels like now post COVID, but it was kind of like that at that time. And we got the,

Chelsea (09:45.994)
Okay.

Chelsea (09:55.454)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (10:03.734)
We got the serum in time and it was given to Jessica. She was put in the NICU, neonatal intensive care unit. She was small for birth. So she was four pounds, probably 11 ounces when she was born. And so they did put her in the NICU and I couldn't see her.

Chelsea (10:25.964)
Mmm.

Vickie Rubin (10:26.258)
So back in the day, in 1982, we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have texting or instant photos. So my husband went out and bought a Polaroid camera and he would take little pictures. I have pictures of it in my book. He took little pictures of her in the isolette and would bring them back up to me. Unfortunately, I was...

Chelsea (10:46.695)
Ugh.

Vickie Rubin (10:52.29)
better and I had to leave the hospital without my daughter because I needed to get approval from a doctor that I no longer had chicken pox before they allowed me to bring her home. So I went to a pediatrician who basically said, no, you do not have chicken pox anymore and we were able to bring her home. It was probably a week after I delivered her. But going home.

Chelsea (10:55.797)
Mm.

Chelsea (11:05.407)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (11:09.954)
No.

Vickie Rubin (11:20.054)
without my baby in my arms and still all the hormones and the new mom. I was pumping to make sure that I still was able to breastfeed when I got home. And so she came home, she was, when she came home she was four and a half pounds.

Chelsea (11:27.991)
Yeah.

Okay.

Chelsea (11:44.206)
So she lost, she was still losing some weight.

Vickie Rubin (11:46.678)
She still lost weight, but everything else about her was fine at the time. So they allowed her to leave the hospital, even though it's very unusual for a baby under five pounds to leave the hospital. So she was teeny tiny. So it was quite the entrance into the world and into motherhood. And she didn't get chicken pox.

Chelsea (11:52.697)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (12:04.711)
Yeah.

Chelsea (12:08.78)
I'd say, yeah, I mean.

Vickie Rubin (12:13.774)
She got it later on when she was a teenager. She never got chickenpox. And I remember saying to myself, chickenpox? I mean, didn't I already have all these childhood diseases? Like, why am I getting chickenpox as a delivery mom? But yeah, it's so random.

Chelsea (12:19.157)
Wow.

Chelsea (12:27.948)
Yeah?

Chelsea (12:32.962)
Yeah, that's so random, so close to... Oh my gosh. So those Polaroids obviously were a big deal for you. What other things helped you get through that first week without being able to see her or hold her or touch her?

Vickie Rubin (12:52.202)
I had a lot of support from family. I knew I was going to see her. So in my career, I worked with families who really had stories where they were unable to see their child and their child was not going to come home in a week. I didn't have that information then, like how hard it could have been. But I did know that I was going to see

Chelsea (12:56.385)
Okay.

Chelsea (13:15.875)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (13:21.762)
going to be able to see her within the week. And my husband was visiting her back and forth. And so I was just at that point able to deal with it. And everyone kept saying, take the time to sleep at night because you're not going to be able to. Take this time to rest and take care of yourself. So I did the best I could. I was OK. Because I knew in a day or two after.

Chelsea (13:36.819)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (13:50.538)
I was going to see her.

Chelsea (13:51.722)
Yeah, so you had that hope to hold on to, which was good. Yeah, yeah. So you had a good support system too, which is, which.

Vickie Rubin (13:55.445)
I did have hope to hold on to.

Vickie Rubin (14:03.714)
I had a good support system. My parents were not, for the grandchildren, were not hands on. My mom didn't come and she came and said hi, but she paid for me to have a baby nurse. And so she knew that it wasn't going to be something that she could do, but she wanted me to have a nurse, which was pretty remarkable.

Chelsea (14:21.975)
Oh!

Chelsea (14:27.738)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (14:32.886)
because first of all, this nurse had 30 years experience and in all her experience, she never had a baby as small as Jessica. So that was, it was new to her also. And she basically taught me how to care. I mean, I don't know how people do this. They bring home a baby and it's, what? You know, it's really hard, but a lot of people have.

Chelsea (14:38.99)
Mmm.

Chelsea (14:42.975)
Wow.

Chelsea (14:57.091)
Yeah!

Vickie Rubin (15:00.762)
I have a sibling, a parent or somebody come. I like, I did that for my daughter-in-law and my daughter. I came and was hands-on because it's, you don't, you think you have this knowledge, but when the baby's actually there, it is a whole different story. And it's really hard.

Chelsea (15:09.293)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (15:20.418)
Mm hmm. It's so it's so cool to hear you talk about that though that your mom did that for you. Because um, I had a guest, another guest, um, and I'll say it this way, because this will come out season three, but I had a guest in season two who started a concierge postpartum nursing business and it's like the only one of its kind.

right now. Right. So like this you're talking about in the 80s, your mom found this nurse for you. And you're talking about how important that was to you. And our guest, Donica from season two is trying to make that mainstream. And so it's so good to hear you say like that was so helpful. That was so helpful.

Vickie Rubin (15:49.839)
Oh.

Vickie Rubin (16:08.078)
So where I grew up, I keep saying Long Island, I mean my mom had a baby nurse. It was something that was done.

Chelsea (16:17.538)
It was just something you guys did.

Vickie Rubin (16:19.446)
It's something we did, but moving to Western New York, when I started looking for a nurse, I was getting, well, what is your disability? Why do you need a nurse? Like no one, it was so hard. And then through networking, I eventually found someone who was experienced, but that was not easy. That was especially in the eighties and people here kind of looked at like, why do you need a nurse?

Chelsea (16:28.13)
Yeah!

Chelsea (16:46.99)
Yeah, it's just it's not a norm everywhere.

Vickie Rubin (16:51.302)
It is not a norm, but it's extremely helpful. With my daughter, when she was in Ohio, we had somebody also come, a doula, and she was doing it after, and she came in the evening for two nights so that we could get some sleep, which, oh man. And then you knew someone was experienced.

Chelsea (17:06.158)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (17:11.73)
uh, I know I'm learning. Yeah, I'm learning. I'm learning so much more about postpartum doulas. And I said I just, there's so much that I would change about the health care system, especially the like, maternity and postpartum and whatever. But like, doulas need to be a thing and they need to be covered by insurance. And, and home nursing.

Vickie Rubin (17:36.703)
Absolutely.

Chelsea (17:39.062)
needs to be a thing and needs to be covered by insurance. And this is proof of that. So yeah.

Vickie Rubin (17:45.098)
You know, you have surgery and VNA, Visiting Nurses Association, comes to the house. They teach you what you need to know. They look at your wounds. They care for you. And then you have a baby and you come home and they're like, hey, have a good life. Yeah, and it's just, you'll figure it out. Everyone else has, but you know, it's tough. And it's, and not everyone figures it out right away. And it could really change.

Chelsea (17:54.844)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (17:58.626)
And they're like, see ya! Yeah, you'll figure it out.

Vickie Rubin (18:15.082)
change that whole postpartum time if you had different support for many people.

Chelsea (18:19.182)
Yeah?

Chelsea (18:22.73)
It's true. And your postpartum journey with your first was unique. I mean, and you were saying, at first, she was little, but she was okay. How did that evolve?

Vickie Rubin (18:39.982)
So I was talking to you before, I felt like I had more of postpartum confusion. I would bring my daughter to the pediatrician every month and say, you know, something's not right. I just, she just, she's not, she's not doing her milestones. You know, you read about all the different milestones. At that point you can't go online, but you have all the books. I like you to have the books.

Chelsea (18:46.231)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (19:07.264)
You've got the books.

Vickie Rubin (19:10.082)
And at one point he said to me, she's fine. You probably need some psychiatric counseling. And so my thought was, well, maybe I need some counseling, but that does not mean she's fine. And I wish I had the strength and the wisdom that I have now then. And it was.

Chelsea (19:19.425)
Mmm.

Chelsea (19:25.985)
Yeah.

Chelsea (19:35.839)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (19:38.474)
so confusing for me because after I would have a visit with him, I'd come home and I would be pumped. Yeah, she's fine. I can deal with this. She's fine. And then I would see other children her age and then I would go down that path again. No, something's not right. She's not right. So my mom also had a similar thought. So when Jessica was six months old.

Chelsea (19:45.875)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (20:06.774)
We made an appointment back in Long Island with a pediatric neurologist who then tested Jessica and failed every single one of her tests. She did not hit one milestone. And so it was clear that she was delayed in all of her.

Chelsea (20:12.939)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (20:26.842)
Mm.

Vickie Rubin (20:34.922)
everything. She was delayed and everything and I remembered that day.

Vickie Rubin (20:42.782)
That day was a really hard day. Obviously it was a hard day. And you know, all the thoughts are going through your head of, Oh my God, now what? And what's her life going to be like? How are we going to do this? And I really, I didn't know anything. And I, again, I was going down that hole of

Chelsea (20:48.612)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (21:11.434)
I remember walking out that night and putting a blanket around her and thinking, just looking at her and seeing like...

Vickie Rubin (21:26.614)
looking at her through the disability. And for that moment, I'm telling you, that day was the last day. After that, I wanted to fix it mode. Totally wanted to fix it mode. But that day, the shock, and it shouldn't have been a shock. Part of me was relieved because I knew something was wrong. So there is, I know when families receive a diagnosis, it's okay to feel a little bit of relief because...

Chelsea (21:29.356)
Yeah.

Chelsea (21:46.582)
You were validated.

Vickie Rubin (21:56.478)
I knew something was wrong and now I was being validated as you just said. So I did go back to Western New York, to Buffalo, and the doctor there then said, we went to a specialist and he said, yes, she looks like, she actually looks like, he had two children with a chromosome abnormality with, and he said, she looks like my children.

And so we had genetic testing done. And without going through all that at this point, they did come up with a diagnosis at that time. It was called Cretashot, which is cry of the cat. Jessica never had the cry of the cat. She didn't really look like them, but they said that she had a deletion in her fifth chromosome. And so we thought she had that diagnosis for several years and we went through.

Chelsea (22:30.21)
Ha ha

Chelsea (22:38.682)
Okay. Yeah.

Chelsea (22:49.05)
Okay.

Vickie Rubin (22:53.898)
We went to national meetings and we eventually realized that she didn't have that diagnosis.

Chelsea (23:03.086)
You know, you spent five years thinking that she had something.

Vickie Rubin (23:06.562)
We spent five years thinking that she had that diagnosis. And in that time, my husband and I were tested for Cretoside. And obviously, we didn't have any indicators. And so we felt free to have more children, because we thought, OK, we're not, this won't happen again. And so we were very fortunate that what she had genetic.

Chelsea (23:19.787)
Yeah.

Chelsea (23:23.567)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (23:35.018)
disability that she did have did not, sorry. We were fortunate that the deletion that she did have did not show up when we had our other children. But at that time, the deletion that she does have wasn't even able to be identified.

Chelsea (23:41.434)
It's okay. It's fine.

Chelsea (23:50.666)
Mm.

Chelsea (23:59.508)
It wasn't something that was on the radar.

Vickie Rubin (24:01.638)
No, and that's a whole other story when she was older. Yes.

Chelsea (24:05.379)
Yeah. So, so, so you got a diagnosis, which, again, I love how you described that because I'm learning through this whole process that there's this duality in life, nothing is ever this and that or this or, or sorry, nothing is ever this or that. It's always this and that. So you had...

this, this you gave yourself that time to sort of like grieve and, and be confused. And then you, and then you were like, no, I've got answers now. So now I can do something.

Vickie Rubin (24:44.43)
I feel like I didn't give myself the time to grieve. One of the things that I write in the book, here's my book, Raising Jess, one of the things I write in my book is I never cried. I never cried. Everyone around me cried, and I feel that, I'm still not sure why I didn't cry. I went, really went into fix-it mode.

Chelsea (24:47.722)
No, okay.

Chelsea (24:52.519)
Yes!

Chelsea (25:09.922)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (25:11.042)
But it never happened later on. I mean, I was, I, and even now, I'm, she's 41 years old and I'm still, you know, so much part of her, you know, learning new things and gaining new skills. So it didn't, not grieving at that moment didn't hit me later. It, it, it continued, it continued like that. But I always thought that was a little bit.

Chelsea (25:33.003)
Okay.

Vickie Rubin (25:40.351)
Unusual.

Chelsea (25:40.698)
I mean, yeah, but that's just your journey. That's just the path that you took. And you went into, like you said, fix it mode, mama bear mode. You're like, all right, let's do this. We're gonna do this. Within that five year timeframe, is that when you had your other children or did you wait longer?

Vickie Rubin (25:45.055)
Yes.

Vickie Rubin (26:03.51)
We did not. I had three children in five years. So yeah, so it was like having triplets. So I always say I had one who couldn't walk, one who refused to walk, and one who wouldn't stop walking. And it was the baby who wouldn't stop walking. So I had this big double stroller and Jessica would sit in the front and my middle child would sit in the back because he still hates walking. He still hates walking.

Chelsea (26:08.297)
Wow.

Chelsea (26:19.651)
I'm sorry.

Vickie Rubin (26:35.183)
And my little infant would follow us in a baby walker. It was just, we looked ridiculous. Or I would put them both in the stroller and then I would have the baby on my back and we'd go to the mall. And we were always a sight to see. We were always a, yes, we were definitely a sight. But it did feel like triplets. And I think when people saw us, they didn't really know what to make.

Chelsea (26:52.597)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (27:03.622)
of us because they weren't triplets, but they all looked like Jessica just looked more like a baby and so we were an unusual threesome. I had three in diapers at the same time. One point I was feeding three children at the same time, so a lot of the experience could have mimicked a little bit like a triplet experience.

Chelsea (27:04.451)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (27:07.645)
No!

Vickie Rubin (27:32.182)
But yes, one of the...

Chelsea (27:32.217)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (27:37.43)
I know it was sometimes when, you know, I worked with a lot of families, as I said, many people after they have a child with a disability do not have other children. And I completely understand that. And we were, I feel blessed that we were kind of naive and thought it's not happening again. And it didn't. But I feel that.

Chelsea (27:54.316)
Yeah.

Chelsea (28:01.12)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (28:06.722)
It was a risk because, you know, Jessica took full-time care. She's still full-time care. And having other children was added a lot to the load. But we...

Chelsea (28:22.622)
Yeah, I was gonna say, like, how did that sort of impact you? Like, were you doing this all on your own? Was it just you and the three kiddos?

Vickie Rubin (28:33.514)
Yeah, because my husband was working. It was me and the three children. At the time when Jessica was five, she did started going to a day program where she was getting her special services. So it wasn't as organized as it is now with all the regulations and state regulations and federal regulations, but she did have a program that she went to. And so I was able to

Chelsea (28:50.369)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (29:04.278)
to have the other two home while Jessica went to program during the day. But one of the philosophies we started at the beginning was, we're going to do everything. It's going to take longer and it may be more complicated, but we are going to do everything. And we did. I mean, our daughter was

in travel soccer and so I would go to travel soccer with her and I would do the sleepovers and Mitch would stay home with Jessica and then he was the coach of Alex in um in baseball and so and I would bring Jessica like everybody knew Jessica we brought Jessica was just a real part of our community and I know I'm going on a tangent but I want I want to say something about that um I have a friend

Chelsea (29:36.748)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (29:52.406)
Not at all. Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (29:56.238)
who her son is the same age as my son Alex, and they lived in Buffalo for a while, and then they moved to California. And one of his first friends was a young man, a young boy in a wheelchair, and they became pretty much best friends. And when my friend said to her son, you know, how did you two become friends? And he said,

Well, I always knew Jessica and I always knew how cool Jessica was. So I was, I wasn't afraid of being friends with my friend, Chris. I, you know, I, I wanted that because I already had experience with Jessica. So she's really made an impact. And because we brought her into the community over and over and over again, people knew her and, and people were not afraid. I mean, at first, sometimes people gave.

Chelsea (30:33.699)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (30:49.847)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (30:55.734)
gave looks, but she became a familiar community member.

Chelsea (31:01.314)
I remember when I was reading about you, that literally the line that you said about like, we're gonna do everything and it might just take longer. I was like, yes, this is a person I need to connect with. I'm like, that is the attitude. Because it's hard, it's hard to have that attitude. And I can't speak from experience in terms of, I don't have a child with a disability. But similarly to you with working a lot of families.

Vickie Rubin (31:13.534)
Hehehehe

Chelsea (31:28.482)
working with a lot of families with kids with low incidence disabilities, it can be really hard. Your vision of what your role as a parent changes, your vision of what your child can accomplish changes, and you can feel really isolated. And it sounds like you and your husband made the decision, like, we're not isolating ourselves. We're gonna, like Jessica's...

part of our family and our family's gonna do what we were gonna do anyway.

Vickie Rubin (31:59.526)
And I don't want to make it feel like it wasn't hard. So you spoke about friendship at the beginning of our interview. And.

I don't know if this is karma, a blessing, I have no idea. So I was in a store when Jessica was a bait, like really like six months old. And it was before I went to New York to get her evaluated. And I was still struggling with what's going on, my postpartum confusion. And I went with my late mother-in-law to a fancy store in Buffalo.

Chelsea (32:13.466)
I'm going to go to bed.

Chelsea (32:32.856)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (32:40.562)
And I met this woman who had a baby in her pouch. And we started talking. And we talked for about a half hour. And then I walked away. And my mother-in-law said, did you get her number? I was like, I'm not picking up a girl in a store. What do you mean did I get her number? That's so weird. And my mother-in-law, she was so amazing. She never forced me to do anything. She was always just like, she was my buddy.

Chelsea (32:55.898)
I'm sorry.

Chelsea (33:08.611)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (33:08.814)
She's like, you go back there and you get her number. And I did. And the next day I called, this is my friend Barbara, I called and we quote unquote played every day. And she became like my first true friend there. Unbeknownst to me, she had so much experience in social work and counseling. And when Jessica was eventually diagnosed,

She was such a big support, so much so that when we needed to pick legal guardians and our other kids were too young, she was always like, if anything happens to you, we'll watch Jessica. And they moved after Jessica was five years old and we call each other sisters. We maintained the friendship. And there's two other local people that have also taken on that kind of role.

Chelsea (33:51.968)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (34:06.622)
with Jessica and with me. But I, it really is. But I do want to say that I did develop panic attacks and I had a lot of anxiety. And I remember being at the, at Wegmans's hour store here, which is, have you heard of Wegmans? It's pretty amazing. Remember standing online thinking I was going to faint.

Chelsea (34:09.922)
That's so serendipitous.

Chelsea (34:18.156)
Mm.

Chelsea (34:26.79)
Yes, I have heard of legmans.

Vickie Rubin (34:37.038)
I mean, trouble breathing and maybe this is part of, as I said, I never grieved. Maybe it just came about physically, but I did develop panic attacks and a lot of anxiety and always was worried that I was gonna develop some illness and then I wasn't gonna be able to care for my child and who's gonna, and at that point, my children.

Chelsea (34:44.9)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (35:01.85)
Hmm.

Vickie Rubin (35:06.758)
and who was going to be able to do it in the way that I perceived I was doing it. And I know this is all my own perception. And, and it terrified me because of her level of need and she had seizure conditions, she, she really had a lot of complex medical conditions and severe intellectual disability. And I was terrified, just terrified. So.

Chelsea (35:12.47)
Yeah.

Chelsea (35:34.742)
and these panic attacks would just, they'd just come on? Or would you be able to anticipate them at all?

Vickie Rubin (35:38.824)
him.

Chelsea (35:42.774)
I mean, typically you can't, but...

Vickie Rubin (35:46.934)
No, but once I had all the tests, like the heart tests and all those tests, and I realized it was panic and not like physical, I was able, right, I'm not having a heart attack, I'm actually not going to faint in Wegmans and leave the three children laying on the floor with me. I'm going to be able to finish and buy milk and eggs with...

Chelsea (35:53.121)
Yeah.

Chelsea (35:58.002)
Yeah. Not like a heart attack.

Chelsea (36:05.863)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (36:15.478)
And once I got past that and realizing that, it helped. It helped because I was able to say to myself, okay, I know what this is. I can deal with this. Not to say that the anxiety, I still have anxiety. I don't get panic attacks anymore. I really don't. I mean, I've had an occasional one, but no, I still have, I definitely have anxiety. But

Chelsea (36:16.159)
Yes!

Chelsea (36:30.97)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (36:42.998)
I don't know if that comes from Jessica or that's genetics because there's a lot of anxiety in our family. So I come by, definitely I come by that naturally, but it definitely having a child who has so many needs triggered that in a way that was hard. It was hard. But again.

Chelsea (36:48.454)
Yeah? See, you may have been predisposed.

Chelsea (37:01.945)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (37:09.71)
It didn't stop us. I mean, I just looked, I just wanna, you know, one of the things, one of the main points in my book, and I'm just gonna say the name, Raising Justice Story of Hope, available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, everywhere, and it's award-winning. I've won three awards.

Chelsea (37:27.278)
Go for it. Say it as many times as you want. You've, yes. Yes. And we will link it in the show notes so that our listeners can find it. I want them to check it out.

Vickie Rubin (37:42.45)
And they can also buy it on my website and I will sign it for them at VickiRubin.com. But one of the main tenets that I want to share with families is that life is not always what you expected. And there's lots of twists and turns. But just because things are different, that does not mean things are bad.

Chelsea (37:46.618)
Woohoo!

Vickie Rubin (38:10.93)
It's just you're doing a different path than you thought. It's not that you're doing a bad path. So I never thought having a child with a disability was, our life is ruined, now what are we gonna do? It wasn't like that. In fact, she transformed me in ways. When you asked who was I before and who I became, I went from that person who was like, oh, I have no patience for special ed.

Chelsea (38:38.033)
Hahahaha

Vickie Rubin (38:39.374)
to like that became my career and my life. And she taught me and still teaches me so much about patience and love and joy and acceptance and advocacy and helping others, which is what I went on to do in Western New York.

helping other families advocate in six counties in Western New York. So she transformed me and I think she transformed our family. A lot of people worry about the siblings and in the book, I do talk a lot about the sibling experience. And a lot of people worry, including my in-laws and my parents at one point, were worried how will this affect

Chelsea (39:18.2)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (39:37.542)
Jessica's siblings. If she's Jessica just going to get so much more attention that they're going to feel that and I'm I've read a lot about other siblings where one sibling she had a sister who had pretty significant intellectual disability and this other this sibling when

Chelsea (39:38.895)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (40:05.674)
if she didn't get A's in her school, she was worried she was going to catch her sister's disability. And there's lots of stories about how siblings, you know, deal with that information. So as parents, we always talked about Jessica and we really, we, Jessica's siblings, they always helped. They helped with Jessica's and the grandchildren.

Chelsea (40:12.727)
Mmm.

Chelsea (40:32.056)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (40:35.498)
at this point do that too. Or like my granddaughter at three years old always wants to help me with Jessica. Can I help her eat? Can I help feed her? All right, you know, so I think one day she's gonna be something in the helping field because she is just showing so much of that with Jessica.

Chelsea (40:43.385)
Hahaha

Chelsea (40:53.21)
Because Jessica's just a part of your family, just like every other member of your family. Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (40:55.606)
She's exactly, exactly. And you know, Auntie Jess, Auntie Jess. And the grandchildren go to her house and they do celebrations and she's at every family celebration because we are, we are all one family and we might be a different family, but we are a strong family.

Chelsea (41:02.794)
Yeah, yeah, of course!

Chelsea (41:25.482)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (41:25.79)
And I think having Jessica created skills for all of us that we never would have had.

Chelsea (41:34.666)
Yeah, and it sounds like, well, it doesn't sound like it did. Like you said, it transformed who you were. It transformed your career. It transformed how you view yourself, not just as a parent, but as a person. So yeah, I mean, and I think, too, like you said, it's interesting to read about and to hear about siblings' experiences. That was going to be one of my questions.

But I think especially when the sibling is the oldest, those younger siblings have never known any different. Right.

Vickie Rubin (42:11.282)
Exactly. That's exactly. And I think that's really important because not that anyone can plan this, but they were born into a world where Jessica needed total assistance with everything every single day. And so they were able, that's the life they knew.

Chelsea (42:22.159)
Right, no.

Chelsea (42:35.768)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (42:41.418)
And as I said, my daughter became a deep, a doctorate of physical therapy. So she took that experience and wanted to learn more about the medical field and help others who had motor challenges. Yeah, yes. And so yes, it made a difference. And I think you're right.

Chelsea (42:41.514)
And it just continues.

Chelsea (42:59.83)
Like motor function challenge. Yeah, yeah.

Vickie Rubin (43:09.186)
Them coming into a family that already was doing it is very different than when you have two children who are used to getting like all the attention and then all of a sudden you have a child who's got medical needs, who's going to the hospital because there's a seizure, who's getting special services. That's tough.

Chelsea (43:27.366)
Hmm.

Chelsea (43:32.146)
Yeah, well, because then you have an established routine and an established sort of, just you've established your roles and then it all shifts and change, which it does with any new addition to a family. But when you're talking about a kiddo with some pretty significant disabilities, like that's a huge shift for everybody.

Vickie Rubin (43:52.718)
I think it also helped me having more children put things in perspective. When Jessica was young and before I had my other children, we did something called patterning, which it's no one does this anymore. But it was basically, I'm giving you the real high level, what is this?

It was moving Jessica's arms and legs and doing things with her head to try to create new pathways to her brain because in the womb perhaps the pathways were severed or weren't done right. And it was a theory. It was unconventional. The Jessica's physicians were well,

Chelsea (44:33.946)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (44:48.246)
It's not gonna hurt her. So we did a modified version, which was four hours, six days a week at our house, every day. And I had 40 volunteers who came to the house and loved up Jessica. And when we were talking before about support, whether patterning worked or not for Jessica, having those people come to my house every day.

Chelsea (44:58.392)
Mm-hmm.

Vickie Rubin (45:16.374)
Focusing on our baby trying to get her to a new level was really Enriching also for me and for her. She's still very social so although she'd never walked and didn't do a lot of the The predictions that they had they she did She always was very social and maybe because we had

Chelsea (45:29.803)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (45:44.494)
all these people in her face every day. But the reason that I brought it up is that, until we had more kids, I was really so focused on fixing Jessica. And once I had other kids, I was able to put all that in perspective a little more because I mean, having time, there's just only so much time you have. And I think it was the right thing for our family.

Chelsea (45:45.92)
Yeah!

Chelsea (46:09.347)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (46:14.018)
for Jessica and also for her siblings.

Chelsea (46:17.186)
Yeah, things that are sticking out to me that are so important are community. And something that we focus a lot on in Quiet Connection is that village and how so many of us today, and I can't speak a lot to, I say the past, the 80s, the, I was born in the 80s, but yeah, like I know.

Vickie Rubin (46:44.49)
I know.

I'm gonna be your mother!

Chelsea (46:50.214)
I, it's okay. Age is a construct, it's fine. We're all people here, it's all good. But community seems to be the thing that we're all craving and especially post pandemic. But the impact that it can make, not only on your child's life, but on you as the new parent is just beyond measure.

Vickie Rubin (46:52.832)
Eh.

Chelsea (47:17.902)
So you created this community for Jessica and at the same time you were creating a community for your family as well. So you had that network that was really there supporting you. And we've talked a lot about like in terms of postpartum mental health disorders, like if we had those communities and if we had that kind of support, would the impact be as deep in terms of would we be as

depressed or anxious or would be able to cope with them a little bit better. And by absolutely no means diminishing the challenges that you went through with Jessica, also recognizing that community was really, was really like a foundation for, for your family and for, and for you and for her. I feel like I'm repeating myself a little bit.

Vickie Rubin (48:11.626)
And no, but, and we still, we have a different community. There were several people now. So Jessica, I mean, she's 41. She lives in a group home, two miles from our home. And we have two friends. So if my husband and I go out of town, I don't even say anything to them. They go and they're at Jessica's house and they're visiting.

And when I come to the house, many times the other women who live in the house will say, well, where's Cheryl? Who is my friend? Why isn't she here? I'm like, hello, I'm Jessica's mother. But so, but we, you know, I have two friends, Cheryl and Ellen, who are that community for Jessica and go and visit the house. And don't tell me when they're visiting because

They're that community and I find that so important. And one of the other things, when we did eventually get Jessica's accurate diagnosis.

Chelsea (49:09.956)
Yeah.

Chelsea (49:17.458)
Yeah, I was going to ask. I was going to ask about that.

Vickie Rubin (49:20.894)
Oh my God, that's going to be the ending of the book, but it doesn't matter. And I'm going to tell it. No, no, it's, it's fine. Spoiler alert, but really no one reads the book for the spoiler alert. They read it for the, uh, the heartwarming and inspirational story. And it, you know, the grandparent perspective, the sibling perspective and, and the humor, there's a lot of humor in it. And this is not, this is not a textbook.

Chelsea (49:24.186)
Oh, it's okay. Spoilers, spoilers! Ahahaha.

Chelsea (49:33.71)
for the experience. Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (49:47.826)
And this is not anything that is a flat or straight read. It's, I tried to really infuse humor everywhere. So thank you. All right. So she finally got her diagnosis and one, it turns out her geneticists lived in our neighborhood and she came up to me one day and said, there's a brand new test.

Chelsea (49:58.654)
I can't wait to read it. Oh my gosh. Okay, so she finally got her diagnosis.

Vickie Rubin (50:16.27)
because I really want to try it on Jessica's, just a blood test. The acronym is FISHF. I should know this. I'm not going to do the acronym right. And the words are, whoa. But it's pronounced fish. And they were able to look at sub-microscopic deletions. And there were only 10 done in Buffalo at that time. And Jessica was the first.

Chelsea (50:26.058)
It's okay. Okay.

Chelsea (50:36.408)
Wow.

Vickie Rubin (50:44.142)
person in Buffalo to actually get a positive diagnosis from that test. And that's where we found out that she had, every chromosome has a short arm and a long arm. Short arm is called Q. I'm sorry, long arm is called Q. Short arm is called P. She had a terminal deletion which is at the tip of the chromosome of the long arm of the first chromosome. And

Chelsea (50:50.007)
Ow.

Chelsea (51:13.05)
Okay.

Vickie Rubin (51:16.21)
we were calling it Jessica syndrome and we still call her syndrome Jessica syndrome. It's extremely rare. So I went on Facebook and I looked this up and I found a group and it's a new community. It's called, we call ourselves 1Q4 because it's for people who have on the on the first chromosome. I don't want to

Chelsea (51:24.954)
Hehehehe

Chelsea (51:30.718)
You found a new community!

Chelsea (51:36.907)
Okay.

Chelsea (51:44.986)
Ha ha

Vickie Rubin (51:45.026)
but people who have a similar diagnosis. So when I joined this group, I was definitely the oldest and Jessica's the oldest. Most of them are young families. And I attribute this to, and I'm sticking with this, is that first of all, she was diagnosed when she was 21. So most people are not still looking for a diagnosis. They don't have a neighbor who's a geneticist who says, hey, let's check this out.

Chelsea (52:08.983)
Right.

Vickie Rubin (52:14.578)
if they get a diagnosis, they're not running to Facebook at my age looking for a support group. So, but that community has been pretty incredible. The families have gone through ups and downs and during COVID we were doing Zooms. We have people from Dubai, we have people from Australia, all over the world, all over the world. Brazil and everyone, you know, everyone's...

Chelsea (52:19.851)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (52:44.19)
speaking English and I've received so many questions. I'm just going to give one thing about the book about this. There was a grandfather who was on the group and this is when we were doing Zoom and he was leading the Zoom and he told me after he read the book, he read the book and his daughter read the book. It's his grandchild who had a similar diagnosis to Jessica and he said after he read the book his daughter and he

Chelsea (52:51.886)
Do it.

Vickie Rubin (53:12.854)
were able to have conversations that they never had before because they were both reading the book. They saw that what our journey and he was able to honestly say, how is this for you? How are you feeling about this? And they had some really deep conversations. So I would, they weren't alone and they were all having the same kind of feelings and the same kind of experiences, but it's hard.

Chelsea (53:25.718)
Yeah.

Chelsea (53:32.066)
Cause they realized they weren't alone.

Vickie Rubin (53:42.154)
It's hard to ask that question, but once you, if you're reading about it and you know your daughter's reading about it, then I think it's easier to bring that up. So I'm saying this a little bit with a caveat, not about the grandfather, but about the Facebook group, because I'm well aware that there's many groups that are negative, whining, complaining, and not healthy, mentally healthy.

Chelsea (53:52.235)
Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (54:10.102)
for people so they really have to be able to, if they join a group and it's not a good fit for them to leave, even if there are a lot of similarities. If it's not a supportive group and you're not sharing all the blessings, the highs and the lows, then it's not the right group for you. Or at least for me personally. I've been in other groups.

Chelsea (54:10.272)
Yeah.

Chelsea (54:32.931)
Yeah.

Chelsea (54:39.795)
Just not a good fit.

Vickie Rubin (54:39.962)
It's not, it's not, I feel it's not healthy to go into a group where people are going to bring you down. You want to be in a group where you're going to support each other. You're going to acknowledge that you all have similar challenges and struggles and a lot of medical issues that have been going on in the group. We've even done, even though we're international, we've given gifts to each other for the group.

Chelsea (54:47.706)
Absolutely.

Vickie Rubin (55:08.246)
children who have had struggles or some children have passed away and the group together has sent donations. It's really a remarkable group. With looking you can find that but equally you could also come across a group that's going to bring it down.

Chelsea (55:19.554)
Yeah.

Chelsea (55:26.656)
Yes.

Chelsea (55:31.13)
Yeah, yeah. And it's the same. It's the same for anything really. And it reminded me when I was in the thick of my postpartum mental health struggles, I was looking for support groups and so many of them, especially the postpartum anxiety groups, everyone on the group is like freaking out. Everyone's freaking out. Nobody's offering any sort of solutions. Everyone's just like, I'm worried about this. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about this. And I'm like, okay, I don't need more to worry about. So

You have to find, you're absolutely right, you have to find a community that is going to be able to, you can relate to them, but you, you can support each other too, and sort of help guide through the hard times and celebrate the good things and the glimmers. So.

Vickie Rubin (56:21.102)
That's why I think your podcast is so important. It's really important for families because I don't think, you know, I've looked around. I don't think there's a whole lot of podcasts that really talk about, as you do, mental health after having children and postpartum depression and getting through it and surviving and being positive and just having the guests that you have had that have had their struggles and then...

Chelsea (56:24.658)
Oh, thank you!

Vickie Rubin (56:50.71)
and then have either overcome it or have learned from their experience. And I think it's a really, really important service that you're providing for families and parents.

Chelsea (56:53.636)
Mm.

Chelsea (57:01.018)
appreciate that. And that's the thing like I don't I will never spin this ad like and if you've heard any of my episodes, I don't like the term I don't like the term silver linings because I don't think that like oh, you were meant to go through this struggle spin because blah, blah. I don't buy into that. And I don't sit here laughing and smiling because like, oh, it's fine. It's great. It's

Vickie Rubin (57:09.098)
I have. Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (57:27.418)
I still struggle every day. I have to use my coping skills all day, every day. You are still supporting Jessica. Jessica is still like, she's meeting challenges, but there is joy to be found among it, in spite of it, and you will get through it. No matter what it is, there, there...

I don't even know how to word this.

Chelsea (58:02.686)
I don't like to infuse my story into other people's stories because that's not what this is about. But I think the one thing that I took away from my struggle and I was suicidal because of how extreme my conditions were. The one thing I took away is stay. Stay because it's going to get better. It's not right now. It's not gonna be better right now, but it is going to get better.

Nothing is permanent.

Vickie Rubin (58:35.406)
Absolutely. I had with my anxiety a similar mantra. I would sit there and sit down and go, this will pass. This will pass because it's passed before. So I know I'm going through that now right at the beginning when you don't know it's going to pass. You can't really say that to yourself. But once you've gone through it and it's passed and it will come back, but if you keep telling yourself, this will pass.

Chelsea (58:46.091)
Yes.

Chelsea (58:56.033)
Mm-mm.

Vickie Rubin (59:04.418)
this will pass, I can do this. And I think that's another piece that could really help get through it because you have the experience of it passing and of feeling better. And even with the panic attack, which feels more physical, I know just sitting there, okay, I know this will pass. I know. Oddly enough for me, getting in the car and driving was a good thing. Maybe because I had a focus,

Chelsea (59:04.718)
Yeah.

Chelsea (59:16.974)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (59:22.2)
Yeah.

Chelsea (59:27.001)
Yes.

Chelsea (59:31.223)
Yeah?

and a control, it was the same for me.

Vickie Rubin (59:34.598)
never I never had a panic attack driving now I'll probably like get in the road and like I can't breathe but never had a panic attack driving and it was always kind of a strategy for me just get in the car and after Wegman shopping I got in the car and it went away so

Chelsea (59:54.248)
Well, I think that's what I think really that's what drew me to you. One, I mean, obviously I have a passion for families who have children with low incidence disabilities. It's just kind of a big thing in my heart. But your positivity, and it's not toxic positivity, because again, I am not a fan of that, but it is just like.

Vickie Rubin (01:00:06.731)
Yes.

Chelsea (01:00:17.594)
Yes, things are hard and things can be hard and nothing is going to go the way that you think it's going to go. But that does not mean that there is not worth to your life, to your family, to just the experiences that you're going to have. There is there was always a reason to keep going. So that's kind of what drew me to you.

Vickie Rubin (01:00:38.946)
Thank you. And that message that you said is so important. And you hear a lot about the, you read those.

little essays that say, oh, you were meant to be, you were, you were, you know, so good that they chose you as a parent. And I'm thinking, what, what universe says I'm going to give a child really significant challenges and then because maybe you're an okay person, I'm going to do that to you.

Chelsea (01:00:59.709)
Yeah.

Chelsea (01:01:11.335)
really big challenges!

Vickie Rubin (01:01:19.926)
That never made me feel good. Like, you're chosen. No, I mean, what makes me feel good is yes, I've embraced our different path and it has been an incredible, and I'm not gonna want it, still is a really amazing journey and I feel blessed about that, but it's not something someone chooses, or just says, choose me.

Chelsea (01:01:21.778)
No!

Chelsea (01:01:47.882)
Right? Yeah. Yeah, I'll sign up for this. Yeah. Who wants? I mean, I don't know. Maybe there's someone out there. Yeah, write me down. Oh my gosh. Oh, no. Oh, well, yeah. I feel I feel like this is the perfect time to sort of wind it up and

Vickie Rubin (01:01:47.906)
Excuse me. Yeah.

Vickie Rubin (01:01:56.054)
Two! Ahahaha!

Sign me up! That's cute.

Chelsea (01:02:14.154)
I always, I go back and forth between two questions that I ask, but I think the question that I will ask you is if you could go back in time before you had any of your kiddos and you can't tell yourself what to expect, you can't tell yourself that Jessica's gonna come into your life, you can't tell yourself any of those things, but you can instill something within yourself to sort of like arm you, prepare you.

What would you instill within yourself?

Vickie Rubin (01:02:48.802)
That is a very good question, I need a minute.

Chelsea (01:02:51.411)
That's okay!

Vickie Rubin (01:02:58.962)
I think, and I hope I'm answering it right, that I would tell myself, okay, I think I'd want to know about myself that I had a greater capacity to deal with shit. There's my explicit word. Whoa.

Chelsea (01:03:02.382)
There's no right or wrong. Yeah.

Chelsea (01:03:16.522)
Yeah. The one for the episode.

Vickie Rubin (01:03:29.01)
And that I had strength that I didn't know existed. Because I wasn't raised to go out and have a career and do all that. And to know that, yes, you will have a career. Yes, you can do this. Yes, you have.

greater capacity than you think is something that I would hope. And the other thing is just knowing the...

Vickie Rubin (01:04:14.242)
Think of that right.

Vickie Rubin (01:04:18.486)
the breath or the amount of love that raising children, that you have for your children, I mean, you can't know that until you've had a child and you also can't know about all the things that are so hard and the anxiety and all the struggles, but that you will get past it and you will get through it and you'll get out on the other end. And it's...

Chelsea (01:04:22.)
Mmm.

Vickie Rubin (01:04:49.002)
you know, it's important to believe that. And so I wish I would have known a lot of that. I wish I would have known when I was younger that I'd be sitting here talking to you, having written a book, having adult children, being a nana and a wife, and that I took this challenge and made it into something positive and I didn't go down that hole.

Chelsea (01:05:01.418)
Right?

Chelsea (01:05:05.539)
Yeah.

Chelsea (01:05:17.758)
Yeah, no, I love that. I think you answered it beautifully. And, and I always kind of like to pick out like a word, but like for you, I think it's just like resilience. Like, you have the capacity to be resilient.

Vickie Rubin (01:05:18.784)
now.

Vickie Rubin (01:05:33.562)
One thing, and I appreciate you saying that, one thing I write when I sign my book is, may you always choose hope. And I think we all have the capacity to choose hope, to choose, okay, I am going to choose hope and I'm going to choose things going in a better direction. And that doesn't mean it happens immediately, but looking in the long range.

Chelsea (01:05:41.677)
Mmm.

Chelsea (01:05:58.634)
And you know what? I'm gonna add on to that because I, when you can't see it, find someone who can hold on to it for you. And I'll be that person to hold on to it for you. I bet, Vicki, for a lot of people in your life, you've been that person in the past. But if you can't hold on to that hope, find someone who can hold it for you until you can take it back because you have to have it. Yeah. Well, this has been lovely.

Vickie Rubin (01:06:08.265)
Ugh.

Chelsea (01:06:27.166)
I am so glad that we connected. Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Vickie Rubin (01:06:32.238)
Thank you. Oh, thank you for, this has been terrific. You, you know, I know I said it before. This is such an important service that you provide. And thank you, and thank you for including me today. Really appreciate it. Okay.

Chelsea (01:06:43.241)
Thank you

Chelsea (01:06:47.642)
Oh my gosh, I love it. Love it. Okay, I'm pushing stop.