Sasha & Alex - Thrive After Baby

In Season 4 Premier, I connect with Sasha and Alex, mental health professionals who co-founded Thrive After Baby. They met over 10 years ago and always had the goal of launching their own private practice. After experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety, they decided to dive into perinatal mental health training to help other moms and birthing people. Alex and Sasha both agree that it's crucial to have proper support and be able to have open conversations about the realities of motherhood.

You can find Alex and Sasha on Instagram and Facebook

Special thanks to Steve Audy for the use of our theme song; an original piece titled “Quiet Connection”

Transcript

Chelsea (00:02)
Today I'm here with Sasha and Alex from Thrive After Baby. How are you guys?

I'm really good. It feels like a lot of energy for midday on a Friday, but...

Sasha McPherson (00:16)
cup of coffee. Yeah we're over on the west coast so it's morning for us.

Chelsea (00:23)
my god, I tell everybody I'm allergic to caffeine. So like, I wish I want to like suck that energy out of you guys. Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (00:30)
my gosh. I just like, I'm like, wait, I need to know about this. You can tell me later.

Chelsea (00:35)
Yeah, no full for I am I can't have caffeine it makes me really sick I get super sick that and peanut butter. That's like the two the two best things Yeah, it's ridiculous. So I'm gonna I'm gonna leech your energy from you guys over on the West Coast So for listeners who follow me on social media you probably have seen some of

Sasha McPherson (00:39)
my God.

Seriously

Just wrong.

Chelsea (01:01)
Sasha and Alex's stuff because I share it and I just I don't know. I love you But for listeners who are unfamiliar, can you sort of talk a little bit about of like how you know each other, how and how thrive after baby became a thing?

Sasha McPherson (01:20)
Yeah, yeah. How do we keep this concise?

Chelsea (01:25)
How about we start with how do you know each other?

Sasha McPherson (01:28)
Well, Sasha and I met, let's see, I was like, I think 2013. So it's been like over 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. We met at like a previous job. We both worked there and Sasha actually hired me. She like, she interviewed me and hired me. And we were at that same job for like many, many years. And we always had like the goal of starting, like being launching on our own, being in our own private.

Chelsea (01:38)
Wow.

Sasha McPherson (01:56)
We were in like the treatment center world and also had the kind of private practices on the side, but then we're like, you know, we really are our future goal is to be in private practice and do more and yeah, we've We've just been together ever since Like I was like having a flashback so it's thinking like I remember this day Alex peeked her like face into my office and was like I'm gonna

start doing these trainings, like do you want to do them too? And it was like doing like really diving into perinatal mental health because I don't think either one of us at that point had really opened up to each other about the s -show that each of our lives were at that point because we were both like in the thick of it like at work like hey you know and yet the darkness that was behind the like smile you know was there for I think both of us right.

Chelsea (02:43)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (02:51)
And so I was struggling with postpartum depression, Alex was struggling with postpartum anxiety. And as we were like coming through it, really starting to realize like, okay, what we're struggling with, really wanting to help other moms. And so we started just diving into like any type of training to take like our anecdotal experience.

and put it into a tangible way to help other people is like, we were signed up for that. Like you named the training, we were there, you know, like we wanted to know all of it, you know? And so we were at this one workshop and we were telling our mentor cause the whole workshop was about how to take what you're doing in the perinatal world and make it really tangible. Like how to make treatment more accessible, like,

Chelsea (03:27)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (03:43)
to do something different. And we were telling her like groups just aren't the thing because moms can't get out of the house like you know or their partners are refusing to go to therapy with them or it's not affordable or they're in a state where there's no one that's able to support them because no one specializes because they're in a small rural town like this has to stop like this is so nuts and us as therapists not realizing what we were struggling with.

And there's a whole other layer there I find with like mom therapists of like this piece of like we're supposed to know. So like how Dara struggle also and be human, you know? So we were talking with her and all of a sudden we were like, okay, this is what we need to do. Like it needs to be something online. It needs to be some type of course that people can go on.

Chelsea (04:20)
Mmm.

Sasha McPherson (04:35)
and take it online at their own pace, at like whatever makes sense to them. And although it will not be therapy, it would not be the same thing as if you were sitting in our office. It's some form of actual, tangible help that's based on real stuff, not just like, you know, this helped me, so it might help you, you know, but real, like tangible stuff.

Chelsea (04:55)
Right.

Sasha McPherson (04:59)
evidence -based stuff. So we started working on a curriculum and by this time it was fast forward like several years but by the time we're at this point like out of our like you know like struggle I'm pregnant already, Alex is pregnant soon after because our kids are both like the same. They're about three years apart from each other.

Chelsea (05:08)
Mmm.

Sasha McPherson (05:23)
So it was like, it was just really neat. So it came out really organically. We started working on the curriculum and we just ended up creating two different courses. We realized by the end of it, it wasn't one thing, it was two things. It was one is addressing the challenges in coupleship after baby and two is addressing like.

where's the root of the stuff coming from for you? And here are some tangible things that you can do, but you can't just do the skills because the skills put out the spot fires, but they don't address why they keep happening, right? So I think that's the unique thing about our courses too, is that we really try to help people understand like the root of the issue, like all that childhood or relationship stuff that all of a sudden,

pops up when you become a mom and you realize how much re -parenting you're really needing. And we just dive right into that. So. And then we did it a little backwards where like we created our courses and then we really realized like we want an online community of like moms where we can really offer them support for free, right? Like get on there, really talk about our experiences, really share.

Chelsea (06:25)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (06:41)
the tangible things, the actionable things that really have worked and can work and like Sasha said, are evidence -based to really help you feel better and that it can be accessible because although we want people to be able to buy our courses, we also know that not everyone's able to do that. And so that's where our Instagram page then really kind of grew out of was wanting to meet this need to really reach moms.

everywhere right like across the world if we can right and so it's kind of just continued to like grow and develop and and morph into like what it is today which is really exciting and just like really really fulfilling for Sasha and I because like it's like our we always kind of joke that it's like our third baby like drive after baby is our third baby and it really is you know

Chelsea (07:30)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (07:34)
We just love this and we love supporting other moms and talking to other moms that are in it, you know? And just letting them know, you are so not alone because I know I felt like I was the only one when I was in it, you know? And I was so terrified to talk about kind of like what Sasha was sharing. I was terrified to admit that I wasn't okay because...

Chelsea (07:47)
Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (07:55)
I didn't know what that actually meant. And also there was like this part of me that thought, well, like this is what motherhood is. Cause a lot of people kind of told me that like this is just how it is, you know? And so I thought, well, then I guess I have nothing to complain about and I just better, you know, suck it up and stay quiet. So we really want to bust through that and really change the that's our long winded answer. Yeah. That's our really long winded answer. Yeah.

Chelsea (08:02)
Mm.

Mm.

That's your origin story!

Sasha McPherson (08:22)
We were expecting like, I don't know, like three sentences and we're like, anyway, let's just go down this route.

Chelsea (08:28)
perfect! It's perfect because it already sparked questions that I didn't have.

so a couple of the things that you said in your origin story,

got me thinking. One of them was talking about how you're both or you were both working in mental health in the same office and you still didn't feel comfortable talking about how you were feeling. And I think that I'm I correct me if I'm wrong, but I know you may have even said this. I think that there's this like notion.

Sasha McPherson (08:54)
Yeah.

Chelsea (09:04)
that if you're a therapist, you can't also be human. You can't all like, right? You're a mental health professional, like you don't suffer from a mental health condition. And that is so not true. and you said the trainings are sort of what got you talking about it.

Sasha McPherson (09:07)
100%. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I definitely find that for many of us who are moms and therapists, like anyone in the mental health profession, I feel like it's really common to feel like because there's a perception that we know, right?

then we must be the best wives, the best moms, the best, like, you know, because, because you know all the skills, right? Like, you know, you're teaching me, so like, you're perfect, right? Like, and it's like, you know, no, but like, we, I think like, for me, I'll speak for myself, I bought into that, of like this piece of feeling like, I should know, I should have it together. And so I need to make sure that when I'm at

Chelsea (09:41)
I'm sorry.

Right, right.

Sasha McPherson (10:04)
I use all my energy that I have to be able to project that out that I'm okay right and being okay and it wasn't that there was a lack of safety necessarily or like because like that piece of like we didn't tell each other it was like for me it was like I don't know what it was for you but for me it was shame it was like this that piece of like I Should have it together. Yeah, and I don't and I'm trying so hard to fake it. I

Chelsea (10:10)
Mm.

Sasha McPherson (10:33)
for all of you right now, so please don't even ask because I'm gonna have to give you a really fake response. And I'll tell you like the minute story, you know, like of my day when the rest of the day sucked or, you know, it was really hard. Yeah, I think for me it was that, it was shame and it was also perfectionism and something I've struggled with most of my life and so.

Chelsea (10:33)
Mm.

Sasha McPherson (10:56)
it really got magnified really intensely with motherhood. And then also I think our positions at work really were part of that influence because a lot of the other staff members I knew that worked there were really vulnerable with each other, but they were in different positions where Sasha and I were in more leadership positions and higher up positions in the company. So really feeling like.

we can't really, like we shouldn't be talking about that stuff. Like we really gotta keep it together. So everyone else perceives us as, you know, the leaders in control or whatever. And it wasn't about like power, you know, it was just about like that need to kind of keep that perception going. But yeah, to answer like your other part of your question. So like, I know for me, I really...

Chelsea (11:25)
Mmm.

Sasha McPherson (11:46)
I knew something was up. I was about six months postpartum with my first. And like I said, part of me knew this isn't normal, like what I'm experiencing, this has to be more. Because I'm having intrusive thoughts all the time. I worry about everything. I'm overwhelmed by the smallest things. I'm irritable and that's not typically how I am, right? So like...

I was able, there was part of me that knew, okay, this isn't how it's supposed to be. But when I was taking an initial training on perinatal mental health through PSI, because I knew I wanted to work with moms after my own experience, I also experienced birth trauma. So I really wanted to help moms that have had experience that as well. And I'm sitting in this PSI training, listening to the description of postpartum anxiety. And that was for me the moment of.

Holy shit. This is what I've been struggling with. So, yeah. I knew I just kept lying.

Chelsea (12:41)
Hmmmm

Sasha McPherson (12:49)
For me on that part, it was, it was, I like, I feel like I knew I was effed from the minute my daughter was born. I'm not kidding. Like my first daughter was born screaming her brains out. Like it was so traumatizing and like overwhelming. Like she screamed so loud.

post -birth that every single staff came in and said, like, we have to meet this baby because we've never heard a baby wailing with the type of lungs your baby is wailing with. And...

Chelsea (13:23)
God.

Sasha McPherson (13:24)
I couldn't breastfeed right away. And then the nurses were really harsh, or it felt really harsh, on grabbing my body like I wasn't a human and trying to help me, but being really critical. And so right away I was sobbing all day. And...

Chelsea (13:42)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (13:43)
I mean, it was like right away I felt like a failure. You know, did I know that it was postpartum depression? No, I didn't probably suspect it till about week three when I literally was having thoughts of like,

I remember snapping at my husband and telling him like, I don't think we're working anymore. We can, like we were good at this before and I don't think it's gonna, I just don't think this is gonna work anymore. And like hearing myself say that to him was almost an out of body experience. Like, holy shit, like I'm just about to blow up my life right now.

Chelsea (14:03)
Wow.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (14:16)
and really realizing the level of hatred I had, of disdain, was terrifying to me. Because my husband and I are best friends. We are so close. So to hear myself saying that and crying in the other room was just... I remember having these moments of being like...

Like this is not okay. Like this can't possibly just be that like this is harder for me or this is harder for my husband. Like this is like something else is going on. Then the shame kicks in, then the lying, you know, it's like, then, you know, it's like, okay, now something's wrong, but I'm going to just keep pretending like I'm okay. Cause like, I can't have this. Like, you know, it wasn't until I started feeling like a little bit better.

Chelsea (14:42)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (15:07)
that then it was like, okay, now I'm working through this stuff and really looking at like, okay, now that I'm at the point of feeling more like myself, I wanna help other people with this stuff. And then so the training was like, that was when we realized each other was like kind of like in it, you know? And I'm like, okay, like you too. Okay, now I can like start to be a little honest about my situation.

Chelsea (15:24)
Okay, yeah.

Sasha McPherson (15:32)
Whereas before, it'd be like, hey, how are you? so good. So good. So good. So beautiful every moment. Yeah, it's wonderful.

Chelsea (15:36)
Hahaha!

It's so beautiful, everything's wonderful. Ugh. Super big eye roll for listeners.

Sasha McPherson (15:47)
I know. I know. And it's like, you know, and like, it's like, of course, like there was moments where like, I mean, I love my daughter, like I loved her. And, but it's actually, that made it even harder because I constantly felt guilt for like 90 % of the day, hoping that she wasn't catching that I was internally miserable.

Like, and really trying to be happy, which felt so messed up to have to try to be happy for having this baby that I really wanted and really did want. And just feeling like I don't even know how to find myself again. Like I'm so lost, you know?

Chelsea (16:26)
Yeah. Everything that both of you have said is so relatable. And the theme that I get, the word that comes in almost every single episode is shame. That shame, feeling that shame. So yeah, therapists and mental health professionals feel it too. And it's not just...

Sasha McPherson (16:44)
I love the recap like statement and I'm like dang we took that far direction.

Chelsea (16:52)
so another thing that you said, were talking about how like, types of programs, these help programs for moms and parents and caregivers.

They may not be for people who live in like small rural areas and things like that. And I'm in Vermont. We're tiny. There is nothing in this state that toward postpartum and perinatal mental health. We don't even have a PSI chapter anymore. We did in the past.

Yeah, we did in the past a previous episode, I spoke with a postpartum psychiatric nurse who used to be part of the PSI chapter in Vermont, but it fell apart. Yeah, I'm hoping to bring it back somehow, whether it be, I mean, I'm not a mental health professional, but I want to kind of...

Sasha McPherson (17:43)
lot of work. Yeah.

Chelsea (17:53)
noodle my way into the people that I've met through this and bring it back. But anyway, I'm curious how and maybe it's because you guys are mental health professionals. Like, how did you know where to look? How did you know how to find the trainings? How did you know which trainings would be most beneficial? what kind of support would be best for the two of you? Because coming from someone who is not

a mental health professional and is just a mom who went through it. I had nothing and I didn't even know about PSI. I didn't know what PSI was.

Sasha McPherson (18:34)
I mean, we didn't either until we started like Googling stuff and being like, cause I remember.

Knowing, okay, I want to work with other moms, like going through this crazy ride of motherhood and trying to figure all this stuff out. Okay, what do I, I didn't even, I don't even think I knew the term peri -needle mental health. I had heard of postpartum depression, but that was it. And even then so it was like, it's not like postpartum depression was even really talked about. Like I don't even think in grad school, I had a lot of exposure to postpartum depression. There was probably like a little portion of a section in grad school where they talked about it for like, you know,

Chelsea (18:56)
Exactly. Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (19:12)
know a minute. Yeah right so so yeah I remember just like

Chelsea (19:13)
Yeah, it's not, it's not in the DSM. Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (19:21)
like working with moms in therapy or something like that. And PSI was like the first thing that popped up. And so I opened up their website and I was like, what is this? And then they have a professionals tab. And so I click on that and I start reading through that. And then I see their training and I see that they have a perinatal mental health certification. And I was like, what? That's amazing. So, and because they were kind of seen as like, I mean, they still are like the head.

Chelsea (19:44)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (19:51)
of a lot of this stuff when I saw that they had like a basic training to kind of start with. I was like, this is, this is it. There's, this is where I'm going to start. And you know, in terms of like knowing like the support and all of that stuff, like for me at least it was really learning through like that training, the support that I really needed to help myself. Like it's not like up until that point, I wasn't in therapy at the time. I've done lots of therapy in my life. At that point in my life, I,

I had taken like a pause in therapy for a while. So it's not like I was sitting with a therapist who was telling me, you have postpartum anxiety and here's what's going on and here's how we can support you. And even if I was, that person wasn't like, if I'm thinking of any of my past therapists, none of them were trained in perinatal mental health. So would they have even helped me? Because unfortunately, a lot of therapists are not trained in this stuff and they can unintentionally do a lot more harm than actually good.

Chelsea (20:48)
Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (20:48)
So yeah, I don't know. I mean, you might have like a little bit of a different take on just like your experience and all of that. Yeah, I feel like, like with the trainings and stuff, I feel like you're saying like which trainings I literally felt like I wanted to take any and all trainings. I remember one of our mentors, we were on a consultation call with her.

This was like years into it now and she said like stop taking trainings. You literally know everything you possibly could at this point and you just need to allow yourself to continue to help people, you know, and it was this fear of like Although I know we will never know like everything right? No one could know everything but it was this piece of like

Chelsea (21:30)
Mm.

Sasha McPherson (21:40)
I don't want to show up and disappoint a mom. Like I don't want to not know the thing she needs because it is such a vulnerable time in your life and wanting to make sure like like feeling like I want to have every every tool give me every everything and every bit of knowledge I can know because I don't want to be the one that disappoints her or

can't be with her and really just being able to sit and like sometimes the most important thing is just being able to sit with her and to help her know she's not alone and that this is really hard and...

Chelsea (22:13)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (22:18)
I don't need to know every single new, I mean, I'm not kidding. It's probably in this office. I'm looking around for it. I have like an OBGYN book because I bought one. I'm not kidding cause you know, we'll meet with moms that.

Chelsea (22:25)
Wow!

Sasha McPherson (22:32)
There's medical trauma that is associated now, right? And so really understanding all this and I felt like I need to know every complication that can happen, every, and realizing I don't and it's okay to say, tell me more about that and not feel like I need to know and that that's not what necessarily every mom needs is to say, I know exactly what that is.

Because you never will, even if you've gone through something. Like I was literally just talking to a mom the other day where her birth story sounds very similar to mine in a lot of ways when you just look at like the little contextual pieces, right? But her experience is never going to be what my experience was. And if I operate from this place of I know exactly what it's like to go through what you went through, like I'm not going to help you.

Chelsea (22:57)
Yeah?

Right.

Sasha McPherson (23:22)
Because like what you really need is for me to sit and be with you in your experience and really hear you and your story and be a witness to that and a guide to that. And that's it. Like if I come at it from this place of like, I'm trying to be the expert, you know, and I know all of it.

I'm probably not going to help you very much. So that's like been at least for me, one of like the big things I've had to shed as a perfectionist and wanting to be like the perfect therapist and be able to help like every single mom. Like I can do that, but it just like my expectations around that. And this can kind of like dovetail into just the expectations of motherhood, right? And all the unexpected stuff we put on ourselves.

Chelsea (24:04)
Yeah!

Sasha McPherson (24:08)
We do that too as therapists, right? So just really challenging that.

Chelsea (24:13)
so this might be a little tricky cause there's two of you. So we're going to have to take turns. just, well, we, we can do that. Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (24:18)
We know how to do that. We're good.

Chelsea (24:23)
So we've talked a lot about like you guys as therapists and what your role is in terms of that. But I want to know, first of all, I don't think we'll be able to do the whole shebang like I usually do, but sort of I'd love to hear your birth story

and what you found helpful in terms of support for you. Did you...

Always picture yourself having kids. Both of you, yes. Okay. and then I guess if you could tell me a little bit about that journey into becoming a parent and what kind of support systems you had around you or didn't have around you during that period.

Sasha McPherson (24:52)
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

I'll go first is because I kind of shared some of the birth story a little bit. So like piggybacking off of it, I would say my pregnancy, I'm very fortunate, my pregnancy was probably one of the most beautiful times of my life, my first pregnancy and even my second. I've struggled with body image issues my whole life and it is the one time in my life where I don't know why but that switch turned off and I allowed myself to be pregnant.

which is like really surprising. I would have thought it was the other way, but it was like, it now made sense why my body was growing and changing. And I allowed that to be okay. I allowed myself to receive compliments. I allowed myself to be human. I miss that, like, because I don't know if I'm as kind to myself now as I was to myself then. I mean, I'm not kidding. Like the minute the baby was born, it's like, all right, so gotta get back in shape, you know? And it's like, you know, years later, you know.

Chelsea (25:52)
Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Ugh...

Sasha McPherson (26:10)
So that actually was great, like the pregnancy. My birth, I would say the most difficult things are, so.

I had an epidural with both of my kids, but with my first daughter, I'll never forget, we had this anesthesiologist who was on call but asleep at the time. And so we had to wake him up to like give like the whatever, the epidural. And he gave me the epidural and immediately like, I don't know, within like however many minutes it comes to kick in.

It was like you could draw a line down my body and I felt completely numbed out on one side and completely normal on the other side. So it was actually a million times worse because I could feel the comparison. Like I was like, take it back, take it back. I'd rather not have it. he didn't tell me like anything about moving around or anything that would help it to like move.

Chelsea (27:06)
Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (27:14)
And he came back in, and I'm telling you the body image stuff only because this started my journey, is he came back in, he was like, he treated me as if it was my fault that the anesthesia didn't work or that the epidural didn't work. He's like, well, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know if you were laying this way or this way and really came at me with a lot of blame. And then I said, he's like, what do you want me to do? And I was like, I don't know, because I'm not a doctor.

But I need you to either take back what you did or figure out a way to make the other side match because this is like, this is like awful. Like this is like the most awful thing I could ever imagine. And so he goes, okay, well, then I'm gonna give you the big boy dose, you know, which in my head meant that, you know, I'm fat, you know, and like, like, which really was like super triggering, right? Cause I'm already in this super vulnerable state. I'm only sharing it again because,

Chelsea (28:05)
Ugh.

Sasha McPherson (28:13)
I don't know, maybe there's someone else out there who had an F'd up anesthesiologist that like said messed up shit to them. I'm sure there are, unfortunately. That wasn't true, but I'm sure there are. And it was like, I was like, well, that's fucked up, but yes, give it to me. And so he gave it to me and he gave me such a high dose that actually he numbed out my body so bad that my blood pressure started to drop. And so then they went into a panic.

Chelsea (28:20)
yeah, yeah.

my god.

Sasha McPherson (28:41)
because they had to start flooding my body with IVs, like bag after bag after bag after bag, because I literally could feel myself floating away from my body. Like I was like, like I don't even know how to explain it other than I felt like I might be dying. Like I felt like, like I might be detaching. And if you asked my husband, they pulled him out of the room and they said like,

Chelsea (28:57)
my god.

Sasha McPherson (29:05)
Like basically explained to him like this is really serious my blood. I think it's my blood pressure was dropping to like a dangerous point And like the plans of what they would do if it continued to go down But I was like that's so crazy because I literally felt like I was just floating away I don't know how else to explain it other than I legit felt detached from my body and I was floating Like I don't even know that I felt scared anymore. It was like like I was floating away and I

Chelsea (29:29)
Mmm.

Sasha McPherson (29:34)
Then, so the birth, I felt like a limp doll. Like, you know, and it was awful. Like, it was awful. I had an amazing midwife who was super supportive. And you can feel everyone in the room felt compassion and sadness for me. Like, that, like, I was like this limp doll because this man was such a jerk in his approach. Like, he was so impatient. And so then I have my daughter, and I'm sure to some extent...

Chelsea (29:38)
Mmm.

Sasha McPherson (30:00)
on a level like she could feel all the shenanigans that was going on, hence her coming into this world screaming her brains out. I would have too, you know, if I could. And you know, and then that was that's how our journey started together. And then just the breastfeeding was really difficult. I really legit thought that all I had to do was put my nipple in her mouth and.

Chelsea (30:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (30:27)
magic would happen, the angels would come out and she would drink my milk. And it was not that way. Spoiler alert! Yeah, it was terrible. So finally I had one nurse that was really sweet and she just took her time and she just sat with me and she asked permission to touch me. She helped me guide my own hand and we kind of figured it out.

Chelsea (30:36)
Spoiler alert!

Sasha McPherson (30:57)
We later realized there was a tongue tie issue and it wasn't... There was just so many layers of And then, like I was saying, before the first couple weeks, just feeling like this monster inside of me. I was just so sad and so angry. A type of anger... I'm a pretty chill person. I'm not an angry person. I don't think most people who know me would describe me as angry. Not at all.

Not even a little bit like I I don't even know that I've ever seen Sasha angry like maybe maybe like a handful of times But yeah, definitely I would never describe her as an angry person But I was like legit like internally rageful like I like I I felt like I couldn't understand how my husband couldn't understand

what I was going through and how I felt and why couldn't he get things the way that I wanted them to be? I was so internally controlling and probably externally controlling because my world felt incredibly chaotic. Incredibly chaotic and it wasn't. If you were looking on the outside, it would have looked boring but not chaotic. But you were also doing a lot on your own too, going back to the support. Yeah, that was my biggest...

Chelsea (32:04)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (32:18)
Like thing is like so I have a really big family and lots of people offered support but because of this Piece of feeling like and maybe call it perfectionism maybe something else but this piece of feeling like Well, no a good mom is able to do it on her own, you know And I think there's like a family cultural component to this of like in my family. We all Are really good at pretending. You're okay when you're not and and

Chelsea (32:35)
Mm.

Sasha McPherson (32:47)
We're like now I feel like my immediate family we're really good at just not being okay if we're not okay but my family of origin like that's really the story is like we're really good at that. So how could I ask people for help and have them come over and actually have it be helpful if really what I would be signing myself up is for however many hours of acting that that would be like you know so people would ask can I bring you lunch or can I do this?

And it was like, no, I'm good. You know, but real. I mean, yes, I could have used the help, but the thought of putting on a mask for that much time was absolutely like not an option. Like it was like miserable. I actually felt offended internally when people would ask at some point. I remember feeling like, how dare you? Like as if people should know, even though, of course, like how would people know? Right. Because on the outside, I'm like, I'm so great. You know, I know so much, you know.

Chelsea (33:39)
Right.

Sasha McPherson (33:45)
And yeah, and my husband at the time was a lineman, which is like, you know, power poles and stuff like that. And he basically didn't live with us. He was an apprentice lineman at the time. And so he was traveling all the time. And so it was like, I was a single mom by myself. And like, I just have so much respect for single moms because...

Chelsea (33:56)
Mm.

Sasha McPherson (34:12)
It was like, it was so much. It was so, so much to be in it by myself and like everything was on me. Every need that she had and feeling like every time he would come home, he would disrupt the ecosystem. So I wanted to be excited he was coming home, but I would actually dread it because my daughter would scream and cry when he would try to hold her or do anything, cause he was like a stranger to her. So.

Chelsea (34:40)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (34:41)
Eventually, fast forward, my husband started to struggle with postpartum anxiety and he started to have anxiety all the time at work like that like something was going to happen. Someone on one of his crews actually something did happen to them. So it reinforced it even more. And he ended up leaving the career he absolutely loves and still regrets to this day and may end up going back to to be a lineman, but he left his entire career.

Chelsea (34:58)
Ugh.

Sasha McPherson (35:11)
to work in an office at that time because he had so much anxiety and didn't realize he was struggling with postpartum anxiety. Because in his mind and in our mind, it was like the word postpartum is for women. It's for moms. It's not dads. Dads don't do that. And man, having that label, it was the start of our journey and accepting support, accepting help. And the biggest thing for me has just been,

Chelsea (35:25)
Right.

Sasha McPherson (35:41)
talking about it, whether it's in any sort of environment is really talking about it and getting help from the right people, talking to the right people, surrounding myself with people who I can be myself with and be real with and not be perfect with in whatever form that looks like. So yeah, I don't know if that answers everything. I want to make sure you tell your story too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chelsea (36:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, that does. And I love that you, I don't love that your husband experienced postpartum anxiety, but I love that you brought that up because dads and partners are so

dismissive of their own symptoms and their own struggles because they're like, no, this is this doesn't happen to us. This isn't an us it absolutely is. I think so for for mothers and birthing people, we all know it's as we're recording this, it's maternal mental health week and month and all that. So

Sasha McPherson (36:38)
Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Chelsea (36:49)
We are one in five. One in five birthing people are going to experience a postpartum mental health disorder and I believe it's one in ten men or partners will also experience. So it is not uncommon at all.

Sasha McPherson (36:58)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

And I suspect it's higher for the reasons that we're talking about, right? That, typically partners aren't talking about it, right? Because they think like, well, that's not, that's not for me, right? Or like, yeah. Yeah. And they're like, and their research now is saying like, since the pandemic, it's actually close to three times higher for like any perinatal mood or anxiety disorder for mom's dad's, whatever you are, right? So like,

Chelsea (37:12)
Yep.

Right, I didn't just have a hormone drop. Like I didn't, yeah. And that's not what it's about.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (37:33)
yeah, I mean this stuff is really real and it's affecting a lot of people so I'll I'll share a little bit about my my birth story. similarly to Sasha, my pregnancy was beautiful, and pretty uncomplicated and I similarly felt it was like the most confident I had ever felt in my body. I just

felt like I really accepted my body for the first time ever and actually felt beautiful for the first time ever. It was a very bizarre experience for me because that was not what I was expecting. I was expecting the exact opposite. But yeah, I mean, it was really...

Chelsea (38:08)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (38:18)
a pretty incredible experience to go through pregnancy. And it also was like the first time in my life where I felt like I really was good at setting boundaries and taking care of myself unapologetically. You know, I can very much be a people pleaser and to default to everyone else's needs and wants and all of that. And during pregnancy, something just it was literally like a light switch and it was like, nope.

Not anymore. I have this baby to take care of and that means I gotta take care of myself. I wish that would have translated to postpartum. It didn't translate as much postpartum, so... But, so with everything, my pregnancy went great. Everything was fine.

Chelsea (38:52)
You

Sasha McPherson (39:05)
get into labor and delivery. Everything started out great. My epidural thankfully worked for So much so that I was able to kind of take a little bit of a nap while I'm in labor. I'm thinking things are great, right? Yeah. I'm progressing, right? I progress finally to, you know, 10 centimeters and they're like, okay, baby's still high. She hasn't dropped yet. So,

Chelsea (39:18)
wow. Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (39:33)
we're gonna up the Pitocin. And they did that for a bit. And I had been in labor about like close to 18 hours at this point. And all of a sudden baby's heart rate drops and cuts in half and panic ensues. I mean, literally like all these people just start pouring into the room. I'm f**ked.

freaking out like what the heck is happening we go from this literally picture perfect experience to all of a sudden emergency mode the doctor comes in and is like we need to perform an emergency c -section we don't have time if we don't do this she's gonna die and so here we go right and so i'm being like wheeled in

no explanation of really anything that's happening. My husband's not allowed to be in the room with me I had not planned for this at all. There was no point in my mind where I ever expected I would be having a c -section. Despite taking birthing classes and knowing that like c -section is a possibility, I tend to be really anxious. I tend to think of all the what if scenarios. There was never a what if emergency c -section scenario in my head.

Chelsea (40:37)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (40:52)
So this all felt like out of left field. And so my husband finally is able to come just felt really dissociated through the whole experience. At one point I was so exhausted because I had been in labor for so long.

and now they're yanking on my body, cutting me open, yanking on my body. I'm extremely nauseous and like to the point of dry heaving and telling them I'm gonna throw up, I need something to throw up And I just was dipping in and out of consciousness. I felt like I was dying. I felt like my, like kind of like Sasha was talking about her experience of like, kind of like leaving her body and floating out of her body and all of that.

I just felt, I had this moment of peace of like, I'm dying. Like this is what's happening and I'm gonna die and my baby's gonna make it, but I'm not gonna make it. Yeah. Yeah. And my husband's terrified. He's like, at one point I hear him like, is she okay? Is she okay? And he's talking about me. At the time I thought he was talking about our daughter, but he was talking about me.

Chelsea (41:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (42:02)
because he could see me like kind of slipping in and out of consciousness. And so my baby's born, they're sewing me back up. I'm okay. She's okay. Thank God. like putting her on my chest. Cause I had said I wanted to still try and do skin to skin and all of that. I was so out of it. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

I'm literally like limp lying there on the table. Like I can't even keep my eyes open because I'm so out of it. And you know, they're like trying to get her to latch on my boob and I'm not even really present in my body at this point. And then recovery, I mean, from there it was just kind of downhill. We really struggled with breastfeeding. I feel like a lot of that had to do with our experience and she screamed bloody murder and didn't want to latch. And I tried some...

Similarly to Sasha when you were like, I just thought I'd stick my nipple in and she, I'm like, same, same. And I took the breastfeeding classes when I was pregnant, right? But like, I still just thought like, she'll just suck and it'll be good and you know, that's it. yeah, that did not happen. And I had a nurse that was really rough with me also and like grabbed my breast without my permission and was like trying to shove it in her mouth and.

Chelsea (42:56)
Hahaha

Sasha McPherson (43:18)
and she was yelling at me and telling me that I wasn't doing a good job. And then like, yeah. Then they like wheel in the pump and they're like the medical grade pump and they're like, let's use the pump. And I'm like, what? So there was a lot of just no consent around a lot of this stuff and just feeling like literally nothing went how I expected from.

Chelsea (43:23)
Ugh.

Sasha McPherson (43:42)
Well, I shouldn't say from the onset of my labor and delivery, because it did start out looking like it was going to go well. But then once, you know, the emergency stuff started happening, it was like kind of all downhill from there. And yeah, so I believe that like a lot of my anxiety was really precipitated by.

my emergency C -section and the birth trauma that I experienced. And a lot of the intrusive thoughts I was having about, I had a lot of intrusive thoughts that my daughter would die, and specifically in her sleep. I had a lot of fear around her dying in her sleep. And...

Chelsea (44:15)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (44:20)
You know, checking her breathing. I wasn't excessively checking her breathing, but I would go in and check on her. I'd be like looking at the monitor and just like watching to see that I could see her belly rise and fall. But just having a lot of intrusive thoughts of, you know, something really terrible happening to her.

And I also really worried, I had a good support system around me. My husband, my parents, in -laws actually stayed with us and were living with us at the time to really help take care of myself and the baby. So my mother -in -law would like make me breakfast and bring me coffee. So I had all these supports around

while simultaneously just feeling so alone and feeling like I couldn't really talk about how I was really feeling because I had everything, right? I had a healthy daughter, I was alive. I had all these people around me to support me. So like, I should just be grateful and feel like, okay, with all of the stuff that I have around me. And I just didn't feel that way. And I struggled really hard with like trying to pump and breastfeed.

for a long time and thank God, my pediatrician, she was such a godsend. I remember being at like, I think it was like our, it would have been close to our five week appointment, because I tried for five weeks to just pump, I was getting nothing. Like I was lucky if I'd get like an ounce of breast milk. That brought a whole other layer of, I'm a failure. Like I can't even create milk for my baby and I can't breastfeed my baby and my God, like I'm the worst mom ever.

And so I remember my pediatrician just like, I'm sobbing and she's like, you can feed your baby formula. She's gonna be okay. She's gonna be okay. You don't have to do this anymore. And that was honestly the permission I needed to let go and to be like, I'm not gonna pump anymore. I'm not gonna try to breastfeed. I'm just gonna feed my baby formula. Like, and I'm gonna let go of all of this noise that's telling me.

Chelsea (46:07)
Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (46:24)
because there was a lot of external noise too. I was getting a lot of messaging of like, you know, breast is best and you're gonna hurt your baby if you're feeding her formula and you know, her immune system, blah, blah, blah, right, all this stuff. So I just decided I'm gonna let go of that. And that was like, that was the first small step in me starting to like really learn to take care of myself.

and her, you know, and really figure out all of this stuff. But similarly to Sasha, like I think the biggest support and help for me was like really being able to have honest conversations and talk about like what my experience of motherhood was really like, instead of feeling like I needed to mask like and talk about.

how much I loved my baby and how wonderful everything was, which I, yes, I loved my baby. I wanted my baby more than anything. And also it was so much harder than I could have ever expected from literally like birth, you know? So I think just being able to really have honest conversations around that and really feel like just heard and supported in that and not judged. I think that would be like the biggest thing.

And I think that's going to be like right individual, individualized for every mom. Right? Like I think the best support any of us can have is one honest support, support where we're not masking.

And support that is specific to the thing we're needing help with right? You know meaning like if I'm really struggling with breastfeeding as much as I might want to ask all my friends and as much as they might want to be supportive It may not actually be super helpful and actually I might dive deeper into shame versus having a lactation Consultant that I can you know, really ask all these questions They're an expert on it and they're gonna give me that feedback, right? Like I think in every

type of challenge looking at who am I going to be able to be most honest with and most vulnerable with and who actually has this information I'm going to need, right? Because that's going to be different for everyone, you know? I truly think that really is one of the biggest things is where can I be most vulnerable in this area I'm struggling because that's going to be where it's helpful.

Chelsea (48:48)
Yeah. that resonates with me from exactly what you just said is I think so many of us, because we're feeling that isolation and that shame, we do look for others who are going through the same thing. And I think that can be helpful in some aspects.

but then in some other aspects it can be actually pretty harmful as whole reason that I started Quiet Connection was I was seeking, I was like, is somebody else going through this? Is somebody else going through this? And all I could find were people on Facebook spiraling and spiraling and spiraling, like, yeah, I went through this. I went through this too. And I went through this too. And I went through this too. And they're like, Like I...

just spiraling down, down, down, down, down. So there's a place for knowing you're not alone, which yes, and because that's what I wanted desperately and this isn't about I wanted to know I wasn't alone and I'm not alone and you're not alone and you're not alone and we're not alone. But you also need to recognize when it's time to be like, okay, I need somebody who actually knows.

Sasha McPherson (49:44)
Yeah, such a good point.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Chelsea (50:06)
what's going on. Yeah, who and, and I can be my honest self with, but isn't going to spiral with me. And, and isn't going to be like, well, my grandma used to or or like my mom used to finding the right support. And it can be a family member, but and bringing it back around again.

Sasha McPherson (50:16)
Yeah.

Chelsea (50:36)
The state of maternal mental health in this country is so, or maternal mental health care is so abysmal that it's incredibly hard to find those people. It's incredibly hard to find those resources. I don't even know where exactly I was going with that. Cause there isn't really a solution as of right now.

Sasha McPherson (50:44)
Mm -hmm.

I mean, well, but on like that whole like Facebook note, even though that's not like, I mean, this is like a bigger picture issue too. But like, I like what I just want to second that because like I joined some of those same type of Facebook groups and like the spiral that you're describing is so real. I mean, like it can get so dark and like it's it's almost like everyone's depression is getting together and like it's like going and going and like.

Chelsea (51:14)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (51:23)
the level of scariness that can occur in a lot of those groups, I feel like just almost makes it scarier, you know? Like it, cause there's not a lot of hope floating around in those groups, you know? It just, they get really dark, you know? Even though there's like this like odd comfort and like, like you get it for a split second. And then it's like, wait.

Chelsea (51:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (51:51)
but no one's like talking about the better here. Like no one's talking about it being okay. Like no one, you know? And that's like a big reason why we started Thrive After Baby. Cause it was like, yes, we want moms and birthing people and partners to hear like they're not alone. And that's -

Chelsea (51:54)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (52:09)
there are these things that happen that are really common, but not necessarily like normal or things that we should just be like, yep, that's just how it is. Like you just got to suck it up and wait till it gets better, right? But also like what the heck to do about it, not just to like, not just to wait it out and to get the right support, like you said, because you know, it...

Chelsea (52:23)
Yes.

Sasha McPherson (52:30)
there is support out there that isn't actually very supportive. And kind of going back to Sasha's point of like, you have to really get to know what it is that you need. And what we've really found even for ourselves, right? But in so many of the moms that we work with is that...

just identifying what your needs are isn't always easy. Like really understanding what is it that I actually need and why, right? And really digging into like your why in general.

Chelsea (52:50)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (53:01)
Why is this thing hard for me, right? Like maybe that's something that other moms struggle with, but what's my exact why? Because like then I will know if I know the why, then I'll know what to do about it versus just throwing a bunch of solutions at the problem that don't actually address the problem.

Because the problem with this, and this is like what I think both of us probably see a lot of, is this piece of like, yeah, I've tried all those things. I bought the books and I've done the thing. But when you don't know why you're using a specific tool or trying a specific thing, like the level of shame and disappointment and hopelessness that that can create, because the problem's not you and you're doing the intervention wrong. It's probably the wrong intervention for you. Right. Right. And it's not right.

Chelsea (53:48)
Right.

Sasha McPherson (53:49)
really hitting what you think it is, right? And really just getting to like, what's the source, you know? Like for me, I genuinely think the main reason I had postpartum depression was for two reasons. One, my husband was gone. He could not help it, but he was gone and I felt alone. Two, I have ADHD and I did not realize how much my ADHD impacts me and motherhood.

and how much all the things coming at me, all the sounds, all the smells, all the things was so overstimulating that I actually think it exasperated the depression. Right?

Chelsea (54:18)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (54:31)
And so really realizing that because if I came in for treatment for postpartum depression and you didn't realize I had ADHD or you didn't have enough specialization or understanding of that, you would treat the depression but really needed to be treated for me as my ADHD. Because underneath that's what was filtering it. And so they both have to be looked at so that I can actually get better. And I can actually sustain my betterness and actually enjoy being

Chelsea (54:52)
Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (55:01)
a mom instead of feeling like well I was good for a little bit but now I'm not good again what's that about because I'm not really learning those long -term things you know so everybody's story is different on like what's your why like what's the underneath and I just find so many people come in thinking it's one thing and it is that thing on a level but but that there's usually something deeper than

Chelsea (55:12)
Right.

Sasha McPherson (55:26)
that they're describing, but they don't hear themselves describing. And it's like, do you hear what you're describing right now? Do you hear what you're saying? And it's not uncommon. Almost every mom I've ever worked with has one of these things where they're literally telling me about it, but they're almost not hearing the significance of what they're saying. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So.

Chelsea (55:45)
Mm -hmm. I think that can be even more challenging if you don't have any knowledge or background or history in mental health disorders.

Sasha McPherson (55:57)
Yeah, for sure.

Chelsea (55:58)
so like you were talking about how you have ADHD and you think that that was a contributing factor. If you have never experienced a mental health disorder in your life or known someone who has, and you are experiencing these things postpartum, that can be terrifying. You're like, what is this? And I can't talk about this because I'm crazy. That word gets thrown around a lot, but like, but that's not the case.

Sasha McPherson (56:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we meet so many moms that their partners are saying, you're crazy. You need to get it together. You need to, like, this is a you problem. Like, you need to figure this out. Or you're just an angry mom. Like, I hear that one all the time. My husband says I'm an angry mom. And yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Chelsea (56:30)
Ugh.

Ugh.

my gosh. Yeah, that's incredibly frustrating. I love something else. I can't even remember which one of you said it now,

because it's something that I'm working really hard on in terms of the language that I use, and that these things are common. They're not normal. Yeah, and I did, if you go back to early podcast episodes, or just in general in my life, I'd be like, it's normal. It's normal. It's normal. Well, it's not normal, because it's not you. And this isn't how you don't mean to feel this way. But it is incredibly common.

Sasha McPherson (57:03)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What an important distinction though. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Chelsea (57:28)
Yes, and I have learned that and I love Because it does, it brings it back around to even, again, talking about the finding connection without spiraling, knowing, okay, other people are going through And I can get help. And there is another side to this.

Sasha McPherson (57:52)
Yep. Yeah.

Chelsea (57:52)
So we're talking a lot about like, if you don't have knowledge in mental health disorders or postpartum mental health disorders, if you are not mental health professionals, like you're not going to know what to look for. You're not going to know what the warning signs are or what they mean. How do you, this is a huge question guys. I'm strapping. How do you think?

mental health professionals and medical professionals could improve to better meet the needs of birthing people? This is a really big question. But kind of like in your mind, if you could envision the perfect scenario, what would it look like for you?

Sasha McPherson (58:29)
What a good question. Yeah. Yeah.

I would say, one, I would say from the point of you're in your doctor's office that this would be something we're talking about.

Which leads to a whole other slew of issues, right? Because there's liability, there's lack of information. I think it would be beautiful to see OBs and therapists sharing an office. And there is practices out there. There are, yeah. Where this is occurring and where therapists are running like, you know, like perinatal just to be able to have a space where like that's existing. So you...

Chelsea (59:04)
Mm.

Sasha McPherson (59:22)
know whether you end up needing that support or not that like you're already not alone and this is already part of the conversation. It's just like when I was pregnant like at least with my first my second was born in the dead of COVID so nothing was happening right but like and thankfully it was my second and not my first right which not all moms like who got that right but with my first it was so like

Chelsea (59:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (59:46)
it was very much advertised and pushed, go to these classes at the hospital where we're going to talk to you about breastfeeding and labor and delivery and you know, there were like, and baby care and all of these, there was like a whole series of classes that we went to that they were full. I mean, there must've been like 50 people or more in these classes. Not one of those classes talked about perinatal mental health. Not one.

That is such an easy fix. Yeah. Such an easy fix, right? Like even just to give and also want to go back to like, even if you are a mental health professional as like we we are and were then I did not know that what I had was postpartum anxiety. Yeah. Because no one had talked to me about that before. I was like, I don't have postpartum depression. So like, because I know I kind of know what that is. I don't have that. So then once again, I just thought.

Chelsea (1:00:17)
Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Sasha McPherson (1:00:44)
this is just how motherhood is, or there's something really, really wrong with me and that's scary. So we're not gonna think about that, right? So - Well, and a lot of the screeners are written in a way - Thank you. Where one - Thanks for bringing that up. One, there's clearly a right answer and the answer you don't want, right? It's clear in that way. And it also is simultaneously not comprehensive enough. Nowhere near enough. There's not enough how that looks.

Chelsea (1:00:59)
my god.

Yes.

No!

Sasha McPherson (1:01:14)
books in real life. Like I can't tell you how many moms I sit with depending on what screener we're talking about. And they're like, well, no, I don't have that. And I'm like, but you just described this and this and I'm like, well, that's not that. And I'm like, it is. It is. You know, and and it's like, so how many moms are sitting there getting the screeners and their OBs are doing great doing screeners, by the way. And yet they're misunderstanding the question. How many are in such shame that they're purposely answering incorrectly?

Chelsea (1:01:26)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (1:01:44)
and minimizing their stuff, right? And how many are just not understanding the question, you know? Like, there's so much, like... Or they're going through it, like I just heard this story yesterday of like going through it, their score on the Edinburgh, which is like a really common screener, right? The most common one, their score was really high and the nurse's response was, well, what's going on? Why is your score so high? Yeah.

Chelsea (1:02:00)
That's the most common one, yeah.

UGH! that makes me so mad!

Sasha McPherson (1:02:15)
so much like my my pediatrician that I saw when I was like early postpartum they did it like they were like the gold standard so they administered the Edinburgh to me because here's the other thing you see your OB once at your six -week postpartum likely not going to be the ones that are going to be really understanding or seeing what's actually going on and really they're in the room with you for like maybe five minutes if you're lucky right

But my pediatrician on the other hand was seeing me constantly, right? Because like you're going in a couple of days after Bibi's born, the week, the two week, right? Like you're always in there. So they were giving me the Edinburgh at every single appointment and they were asking tons of follow -up questions. It wasn't just here, fill this out, bye. Like they were actually taking a look at the screener and asking me deeper questions. They were taking the time to really be like, okay, so tell me about this. Tell me about this. Like,

Chelsea (1:02:45)
Mm -hmm.

Ugh, yeah.

Sasha McPherson (1:03:10)
My pediatrician even just sitting with me. Yes, of course she was checking my baby, but she was also really asking me How are you doing? How much sleep are you getting? Are you eating enough food? Are you drinking water? Like she was asking the important necessary questions. So that's what needs to happen more.

it doesn't happen. It often like that was I got like the rare experience, right? And I just think like big picture because like, yes, all of what Alex is saying and and like just more like, you know, moms aren't talking about it. There's you don't seeing it on TV. You're seeing it more the last year or two since COVID you're seeing more moms on TV with postpartum depression, which I think is beautiful.

Chelsea (1:03:30)
No.

Yeah, yes.

Sasha McPherson (1:03:55)
culturally.

like really, like even if you look at like how much postpartum support or like maternity leave people are getting, the message from the very beginning is you're supposed to just move on and have it like together and okay. Because if it wasn't the message, then we would actually have real maternity leave and people would be able to have like our culture would be so immersed in valuing mothers and the work that we do and caring for

Chelsea (1:04:18)
Yes.

Sasha McPherson (1:04:27)
for our children and raising our children that it would look so different. So I think the bigger picture is it starts there, is everyone being able to have more childcare, like more accessible childcare, actual maternity and paternity

Chelsea (1:04:33)
Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (1:04:46)
All the like just access to more supports like we're fortunate in our area We have a parent resource center in ventura that has a lot of these supports, but not all areas have them You know like you're saying in your there's really not there's not anything, you know And so but it's it's really looking at like in the communities How can we support moms and so that like it's just part of our life that moms are valuable That dads are valuable that like families are valuable

Chelsea (1:04:59)
no.

Sasha McPherson (1:05:16)
and putting in place supports that are such that we don't have to just suck it up and feel like we just gotta get moving on and to be part of the productive workforce, and some people might feel reactive to that because that piece of, I just genuinely feel like,

families are so important and so valuable and at the end of the day as much as I love what I do like like Work is is work and it's one part of what I do but like I I do it because I love my family and because I want my kids to have a good life and I want them to enjoy themselves

I don't know, I think at the end of the day, it's like, you know, we're all wanting to leave this world like a better place, right? I don't know. I don't know.

Chelsea (1:06:06)
You do know, but you do you do you know, because and I and I like and as you're saying it, I'm like, and when you're saying like people can feel like activated by that, like to the naysayers, other countries.

are doing it. I don't want to even say can do it. Almost all other developed nations are doing it. We can do it. Yes, it's a big undertaking. You're talking about better childcare. You're talking about better leave. You're talking about just more supports in general. It's doable. It is not impossible. Don't let anybody tell you that it is. But that's a whole other podcast.

Sasha McPherson (1:06:24)
Yeah, like most other kinds of things. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes it is!

Chelsea (1:06:51)
my god, we could go on about that for a long time.

Did you see my brain shut off for a minute? It just went, it literally went like black screen. okay.

Sasha McPherson (1:06:58)
No.

I think it's amazing that you're even doing this. I think it's just so cool that you're a story collector and I think that's beautiful.

Chelsea (1:07:06)
I'm sorry.

I am a story collector and I've said this before but I call it selfish selflessness because I literally feel like every single person that I've talked to doing this and it's, I mean we're in the hundreds now, I may not agree 100 % with their lifestyle or I may not resonate 100 % with their story but...

Sasha McPherson (1:07:39)
Yeah.

Chelsea (1:07:40)
I want them to have a platform to tell their story. And I'm telling you with 100 % honesty, there has been something from every single episode that I've done that has healed a little piece of me. Even people, like I said, even people that I like fundamentally in life, we probably would not hang out. Like I'll put it nicely. Like we wouldn't hang out.

Sasha McPherson (1:07:53)
I believe that, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Chelsea (1:08:05)
But I have taken away something or it has healed a small part of me and my journey. So, but I just feel like it's so important to tell your story. yeah, anyway, that's its own thing.

Sasha McPherson (1:08:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, no, what you're doing is so cool and so special. And I think for having moms to be able to listen to a collection of beautiful stories, hard stories, right? And to be able to hear different parts of their story within someone else's story is beautiful. Yeah. You know, so thank you for letting us be part of that and just doing what you're doing.

Chelsea (1:08:41)
Thank you. No, but thank you. Seriously. Because I do, I also have, massive imposter syndrome. Like I'm like, cause we're still a small pod.

Sasha McPherson (1:08:52)
Same girl, same.

Chelsea (1:08:54)
We're still a really, really small podcast. Like I'm still But it's...

Sasha McPherson (1:09:00)
We still feel like basket cases sometimes were like, yeah, man, like, you know, like, I'm helping someone out there, you know, yeah, like, who let us drive this bus, you know, like.

Chelsea (1:09:11)
I can't even...holy...okay. I'm on a tangent again and I'll...whether this makes the episode or not, but like legit though, like there are people...in my life I've always...I don't want attention on me. I've always made myself very

Sasha McPherson (1:09:19)
Ha!

Chelsea (1:09:29)
through this, I've started reaching out, just like I reached out to you guys, like I'm reaching out to people through social media or through just however, that I would absolutely never message ever.

Sasha McPherson (1:09:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chelsea (1:09:44)
But it, but my imposter syndrome is like, this can't be real. Like, why, like, this isn't actually, this is, why do you want to talk to me? Like, but anyway. I know, yes.

Sasha McPherson (1:09:48)
Yeah, yeah. That's so relatable. But you know what, we're all people at the end of the day, right? And it's like, we're all part of this club. We never really wanted to be a part of it, but we're part of it. So embracing it and I don't know. I think there's something really cool in that at the same time. I've been really like my newest mantra and earned internal kind of thing.

Chelsea (1:10:02)
No.

Yes.

Yeah.

Sasha McPherson (1:10:17)
for myself that's been really helpful is why not? Because like my imposter syndrome will tell me like, why me? Like who says that I can do this? And so why not, right? Who says I can't? And why do I continue to put myself in this space of like playing small? And it's all for protection, right? It's that fear of a lot of different things.

Chelsea (1:10:21)
Yes!

Yeah!

Exactly.

Yup.

Sasha McPherson (1:10:42)
right, but really understanding where that imposter syndrome is coming from and it's trying to protect me and yet it isn't doing a good job. It's actually really harming me. So I can just thank it for trying and just say, you know, thank you and I don't need you. I got this, like, and I can do it even with the imposter syndrome or with the fear, right? Like.

Chelsea (1:11:03)
I think you need to bill my insurance company because now this is like therapy.

Sasha McPherson (1:11:09)
We say that to each other all the time. We're like, yeah, just film me for this. Clearly, this is crossed over.

Chelsea (1:11:15)
Yes, this is billable.

And I just like this is not one of those. Like this is like I feel like I feel like we could chill. Like I mean, maybe I'm assuming here comes imposter syndrome again. But like, I feel like you guys are my people. So.

Sasha McPherson (1:11:25)
100 %

Yeah, tell that bitch to get out of the room. Don't be too long excited.

Chelsea (1:11:38)
my god. Okay. Okay. We have covered so much in such a short amount of time and I absolutely love that we've been able to get your perspectives not only as mental health professionals, not only as mental health professionals who have certifications in the perinatal and postpartum but also as parents yourselves. just, this has been...

just such a wonderful development of rabbit holes and side stories and it's just been beautiful. guess I will sort of wrap it all up with what do you guys hope my listeners take away from this episode and your stories?

Sasha McPherson (1:12:24)
good question. I don't know. I guess I hope that because for sure after you know it will be like the vulnerability thing right we're gonna hang up and we're like dang did I share too much right and you know what I hope that in our series of over shares today.

Chelsea (1:12:25)
Hahaha!

I'm gonna go.

Sasha McPherson (1:12:46)
And you know what the truth is? The truth is there's so much more. You know, like we're sharing like the surface, right? And I just hope that, you know, there's moms and dads listening to us know, that see part of themselves and that may feel less alone.

Chelsea (1:12:51)
Mm -hmm.

Sasha McPherson (1:13:06)
may feel motivated to get help, may realize for the first time like, my gosh, maybe this is why my husband is overworking or drinking or avoiding me or grouchy or on his phone all the time. You know, like all the things like maybe, maybe there's some clarity that comes from any of this for someone, you know, even if it's just one piece.

because that's why we're doing all of this. Like that's why Thrive Exists period is like, we just want to help people. We want to help people hopefully not go through what we did. And if they are to know that it can get better, like truly, truly, I think like that hope piece is like really big and knowing like there is another side, there is a way through all of this and that like you're never too much, whatever it is that you're experiencing, it's not too much.

you're not the problem. Whatever you're struggling with, like so often in this, we think it's me. I'm a failure, I'm not good enough. It's because of something that I'm lacking or I should be doing. We should all over ourselves all the time, right? And it's like, such a good expression. But yeah, the reality is, is like the problem is likely.

Chelsea (1:14:03)
Mm -hmm.

I love that expression. Yes.

Sasha McPherson (1:14:27)
a lot of different things, right? And if we can identify the problem correctly, there is a solution. And it's not one size fits all, you But yeah, I would say that's probably the biggest thing I would want listeners to take away from this.

Chelsea (1:14:43)
I love it. I love it. I love everything that you guys are doing. Where can my listeners find you? I know you mentioned Instagram, but where can they find the amazing resources and things that you guys are doing?

Sasha McPherson (1:14:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so our Instagram handle is Thrive After Baby, right? And our website is the same, so thriveafterbaby .com. And you can find our free resources, low -cost resources, and information about therapy and coaching on there. Mm -hmm.

Chelsea (1:15:14)
thank you guys so much. This has I told you I was like really low energy in the beginning and now I'm feeling like, okay, I can get through the rest of my day. Yes! That's the hardest part of this. I can't even tell you all the people that I meet that I that I really vibe with. I'm like, ugh.

Sasha McPherson (1:15:24)
Right? Like I'm like, when's the hangout after?

I bet, yeah.

Nah.

Chelsea (1:15:39)
Okay, let's go get like can't go get lunch with you. Just kidding. It's not even lunchtime for you guys No, we can't

Sasha McPherson (1:15:42)
Yeah.

We can do virtual coffee or something. You can't have coffee, never mind, never mind.

Man, virtual water. Virtual whatever you like to consume.

Chelsea (1:15:54)
Anyway.

Yes! We'll have some tea and spill some tea and yes. Anyway, thank you guys so much for everything that you're doing. Thank you for choosing Quiet Connection to share your stories and what you're doing and for sure I will be following you guys in your journey.

Sasha McPherson (1:16:02)
Yeah.

Same. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, seriously, for everything you're doing and for allowing us to be part of it. It's so important what you're doing and you're making such a difference. So we're just so, like, so, so happy to be, like, a part of this and be able to share our stories and yeah.