Drew N - Dad's Mental Health, Breaking the Stigma

CW: This episode discusses addiction, suicidal ideation, and other mental health topics that may be triggering. Please be mindful of your comfort levels. 

In this episode, Drew shares his journey into parenthood and his experience with postpartum depression as a gay father. He discusses the challenges he faced, including feelings of isolation and the pressure to portray a perfect image. Drew emphasizes the importance of talking about depression and seeking help, breaking the stigma surrounding men's mental health. He also highlights the duality of parenting, acknowledging both the gratitude and the difficult moments. Overall, Drew's story sheds light on the unique experiences and struggles faced by fathers in the realm of mental health. 

Takeaways

• Postpartum depression can affect fathers as well, and it is important to acknowledge and address this issue.
• There is a stigma surrounding men's mental health, and it is crucial to break the silence and seek help when needed.
• Parenting is a journey filled with both joy and challenges, and it is okay to feel a range of emotions.
• Support and open communication are essential for navigating the difficulties of parenthood. You are enough, and it's important to remember that you are doing your best as a parent.
• Comparing yourself to others only leads to despair, so focus on your own journey and progress.
• Seeking help and joining a supportive community can make a significant difference in your mental health.
• There is a lack of resources specific to the needs of gay fathers experiencing postpartum depression.
• Talking openly about mental health with your children can help them understand and cope with their own emotions.

Visit Inclusive Neuroverse and enter code QUIETCONNECTION at checkout for a 15% discount off your order!

Thank you to Steve Audy for the use of our theme song: Quiet Connection

This episode discusses topics that may be triggering for some individuals. Please check the show notes for more information and be mindful of your own mental health and comfort levels.

Transcript

Chelsea (00:02)
Hello! Today I'm here with Drew. Drew, how are you?

Drew (00:06)
I'm good, how are you Chelsea?

Chelsea (00:09)
I'm good. I'm so happy to have you on. Drew and I met. We are contributing writers for a local organization called Vermont Mom. And I'm super, super excited to have you. I'm going to ask you what I ask everyone to start. I'd love it if you could tell me a little bit about who you are and who you were before becoming a parent.

Drew (00:37)
Okay, well contributing writer is generous because I still have yet to finish that onboarding that I promised Jemima that I would do. I currently live in Vermont with my husband and our two-year-old son and I am pretty much a full-time stay-at-home parent. I teach Pilates and ballet.

Pilates one day a week for like three hours and ballet most evenings after he goes to bed then the rest of the time I'm at home with him. Before I was a dad, I was a professional ballet dancer for 14 years and I danced.

Chelsea (01:15)
ha ha!

Drew (01:30)
all over the United States and also in Germany and Europe.

Chelsea (01:36)
which I think is so freaking cool. I danced growing up. My mom wanted me to do ballet, but I did not have the discipline at all. So I love it. And I think it's so cool. And I can totally picture you like doing it, but props to you. Cause that is way too strict and structured for me.

Drew (02:01)
It was the exact right amount of strict instruction for me. So, you know, different strokes for different folks.

Chelsea (02:07)
It's true. Yeah, I was jazz. I was jazz and modern. And that kind of fits my awkward and unpredictable personality. But I love that. So you your husband are in Vermont and you have a two year old. And when I met you...

you had mentioned that you had suffered from postpartum depression. And I immediately latched on to you because I'm such a weirdo. Like, it was the first time I met you and I was like, I have to have you on my podcast because dads aren't talking about this. So I am so excited. Well, I mean, that's such a weird way to say it. I'm so excited to have you talk about depression.

Drew (02:55)
No, I'm excited to talk about depression too because I don't, I mean, yeah, I definitely don't hear dads talking about it, but I don't hear people talking about it. And then I know it's been really helpful to for me to be open and honest about struggling with it. And when you are people are like, Oh, yeah, like this or that you just said resonates with me. And I'm like, yeah.

that might be a little bit of depression and it's okay to share that this is so hard and you're just supposed to be like 100% perfect at it all the time.

Chelsea (03:26)
Yeah!

Yes!

The statistics for men is one in 10 will experience postpartum depression.

I really want to delve a lot deeper in my own research and whatnot into how that also affects the trans community, how it affects just partners in general, because it's just a non-birthing partner. Because right now, all of the studies are done on women and men, and that's it, and I'm like, there's so much more to it.

But for the sake of this episode, we're gonna focus on the one in 10, let's, before we even dive into all of that, let's talk about your journey into parenthood. Did you always picture yourself being a dad?

Drew (04:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, I have always imagined that I would have a family. I knew very young that I was gay. I come from a really accepting house and I don't know why, but I knew it was always going to be an option for me.

I also never really imagined that I'd share biology with a child. It seemed more likely to me, just based on what I knew of gay people or queer people having children that I would adopt or come to have children via foster to adopt.

Chelsea (04:56)
Mm-hmm.

Drew (05:01)
and my husband and I discussed it and he really, he's a physician and really wanted to be a part of the entire process and like see a child be born, like know a child that intimately. know, it was hard to decide whether or not to do it in the sense that.

It's so intentional to bring a child into the world that way when there are so many unwanted children. But ultimately we did decide to have our son via a gestational carrier and a donor egg. And it was beautiful and I feel very fortunate to have been able

to be there for her wellness visits and ultimately his birth. And we still are very close to our gestational carrier and want her to be a part of his life because it's not like we're gonna fool anybody that one of us got pregnant. So when he has questions, I want him to know.

Chelsea (06:13)
Ha ha

Drew (06:21)
how deeply wanted he was. I know that's not necessarily the case for a lot of people that choose to go through surrogacy, know, I didn't want to excise her after she had given us this service. She's a wonderful person that did something for us that I could never repay.

Chelsea (06:24)
Yeah.

Drew (06:47)
yeah, so I feel very fortunate that it worked out. We like her so much and she can stand us and that our son came into the world at all.

Chelsea (06:58)
beautiful and I love I just love the whole thing I love that you're going to be like open and honest about

where your son's beginnings and start came from. And I don't know. And you're right, it's not for everybody. And I appreciate you clarifying gestational surrogate because there are distinctions and that's something I'm learning too through this whole process. So you used a donor egg and it was a gestational surrogate. So yeah, so you always pictured yourself

As a dad, you always pictured yourself as having a family.

so you go through the whole process. Baby is here. What was that like?

Drew (07:44)
Finally getting to meet our son was immediately overwhelming. One of the major benefits that people tell you surrogacy has is it's on your timeline. You get to plan and we didn't. He ended up coming early needing to be induced.

And so we kind of had to drop everything and he was born in Maine and we were living in Rochester, New York at the time. And it was peak pandemic. So traveling across state lines all of that was...

Chelsea (08:17)
Okay.

Oh.

Drew (08:29)
exciting but also difficult and scary and kind of unknown. And there was some pushback in the hospital about who could be in the room or not because of COVID restrictions. And I am proud to say that our gestational carrier was able to advocate for herself in this way that

Chelsea (08:46)
Yeah.

Drew (08:56)
changed hospital policy. So our son was part of changing hospital policy too. Yeah, so now no matter what, at least one IEP and tenant parent has to be in the room, but the gestational carrier support person will also be allowed in the room. And like, you know, God forbid there needs to be COVID restrictions again, but you know, if ever

Chelsea (08:59)
Wow.

Wow!

Yeah.

Drew (09:26)
There is a situation like that now. There's precedent.

everyone who needs to be there can be there. And then he was on an incubator for like a very short amount of time, but meeting this little person in that way, I'm gonna cry, I haven't thought about that. I mean, like I've thought about this obviously, but talking about it it was so stressful, we didn't know what was gonna happen.

Chelsea (09:47)
Oh.

Drew (09:56)
Weeeeeee.

We were at home, you know, we were in Maine and he was so little. And I have always struggled with perfectionism and, you know, thinking that I can control a situation to my will. And this was immediately and instantly out of my hands.

Chelsea (10:10)
Mmm.

Drew (10:23)
And then he was well again very quickly and it was just like a scary little bump. And taking him home was great and my family came to meet him and we stopped in Vermont on the way so Scott's family could meet him. And the first couple weeks were so unbelievable because Scott...

was still in residency at the time, but he made the decision to step away for two weeks, which is like, I know that seems like nothing, but yeah, it's a big deal. It's very frowned upon, but like, you know, he's a good one. So he did it. And my-

Chelsea (11:01)
Well, when you're in your medical residency, like...

Hehehehehehehehe

Drew (11:16)
family was there for that for those first two weeks, and so I felt very supported and bolstered and I was

I was very worried that my son and I, because we don't share biology, would have attachment issues. And and then Scott had to go back to work and my parents had to get back to their life. And I...

Chelsea (11:40)
Yeah.

Drew (11:42)
I had never, I think in my life, I had babysat maybe three times and for like four hours at a time. And suddenly I was alone and in a city that I had never really taken to with no friends

Chelsea (11:53)
Yeah.

Drew (12:05)
I, on top of perfectionism, I had also had a slew of eating disorders and body dysmorphia, so I've always been very regimented in how I maintain my, um...

physical appearance and I couldn't do that with him. He needed me all the time and at first I became resentful and then I was ashamed because I was resentful at someone that was so small. And then I just started to really spiral and I felt that

Chelsea (12:41)
Yeah.

Drew (12:50)
He preferred Scott and I was a terrible father and I didn't know what I was doing, which was true. Exactly. But I also felt a lot of pressure to look okay because we are gay parents and there's still a lot of judgment around that.

Chelsea (13:00)
I mean, none of us do.

Mm.

Drew (13:17)
I think there's more acceptance now, obviously, than before, but there are a great amount of naysayers, unfortunately, at the same time. And so I wanted desperately to look happy, happy. And I felt so lonely.

I had signed up to be alone with this child, but I didn't want to feel lonely with the baby. And he was such a happy kid, and I really think that we often get just as much as we can truly handle. And in that regard, I was so lucky because, I don't know, if he had been like

Chelsea (13:52)
Yeah.

Drew (14:09)
colicky or really temperamental at all. Like I don't know what I would have done but he's just always been such a roll with the punches kind of kid that I would like wake up in the morning and cry and cry and cry and Scott would be like, okay well I'm gonna be gone for the next like 14 hours. Like I love you. And I was like...

hate myself, like have a great day. And then the baby was, I would just like walk into his nursery and he would be like all smiles, I'm laughing and I...

And I didn't want to talk to anyone about it. we see a primary care physician, like a family physician, so they treat all of us. And like, you know, at our well, like our well child checks, she would ask how I was doing, you know, she would check in with me and I was like, I'm great. I'm great. Like, I just like couldn't let go of that facade.

Chelsea (15:07)
Oh.

Drew (15:12)
And it didn't really change for me until it started affecting my marriage more. I was so angry all the time that I couldn't ignore it and started asking more often what was going on. I just have all of the things, Chelsea. I'm also...

Chelsea (15:28)
Mmm.

Drew (15:36)
like an actively recovering alcoholic. And so I felt very fortunate to have a 12 step program to fall back on. And I started attending virtual group meetings because you know, COVID. And just having these people in my ear, like as I was going through the day.

Chelsea (15:40)
Okay.

COVID. Yup.

Drew (16:02)
like hearing that other people were having a hard time in different ways from me. Like I didn't want to drink, but like, you know, my day was not my own and I was struggling with that just taking it one moment at a time with you know, I started introducing breath work into my daily practice.

Chelsea (16:17)
Yeah.

Drew (16:25)
and finding little moments of time to do that. And he mirrors me now sometimes, because I still get so frustrated with him. It's embarrassing. But he...

Chelsea (16:38)
It's no, you have a two year old, like.

Drew (16:41)
Yeah, like he it's part of his development, you know, like, but he drives me wild in a way that like, my husband's just like, he's just too and I'm like, he's out to get me. But we call them elephant breaths, like we'll do them together. And, you know, making time to be physically active has been really important.

Chelsea (16:44)
Yeah.

Yeah!

Hahahaha

Drew (17:07)
to me and I'm like, you know, this isn't prescriptive. Like, I don't know what I'm talking about. I just like, this is what worked for me. But like I, I needed to start telling people that I needed help. And I like, you know, that I couldn't just do everything by myself and I needed to make space for myself during my day.

Chelsea (17:22)
Yeah.

Drew (17:37)
Part of that was a physical practice and part of that was breath work. And I also started...

prioritizing what truly was non-negotiable and what could I let go. Because for a while there, I would lose it if the house wasn't spotless when Scott came home and

the baby wasn't happy and the dog wasn't fed and like, you know, it just all looked just so. I would feel like I had failed and it's unrealistic. It's unreal. Like I've never in my life been able to do

Chelsea (18:15)
Mm-hmm.

Drew (18:21)
everything perfectly. So why would I think that I could do this thing that I had never done before absolutely perfectly?

Chelsea (18:31)
Yeah. Well, and you can you can look back on it and you can look at it now and logically understand that. But when you're in it, logic is out the window.

Drew (18:40)
Yeah, absolutely. I didn't wanna hear reason, people try and be so helpful, and cherish this time. Like, you'll miss these days. And I was like, will I? Like, will I? And there are definitely bright spots in those.

Chelsea (18:54)
Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Drew (19:07)
those memories, you know,

When I was really struggling, he was probably between 12 weeks to four months. And so he was starting to form a little personality and trying little bits of solids and stuff. Things were fun, but it was also so, so difficult. I don't miss it. And I, every time, I don't miss it.

Chelsea (19:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, and there's no shame in that. There is no shame in that. I think it comes from a well-intentioned place when people say that. And you're absolutely right. There are bright spots that you'll look back on and you'll be like, oh yeah, I miss giving him his first bottle or I miss giving, whatever. I don't...

Drew (19:35)
Oh, yeah, no, no.

Chelsea (19:56)
miss being woken up a million times a night and I don't miss crying because my child's crying and like you know what I mean like there's no shame in that.

Drew (20:06)
Yeah, I think that is another huge piece of it was the sleep deprivation. Like people tell you like, oh, you're just not going to sleep. But like I. I've always been like a real solid sleeper, and like I was cranky in the mornings and I was not a morning person. Now I wake up real early and it's just normal. And your body does acclimate.

But that acclamation for me was mentally grueling. And I don't think that we understand that enough, that like it is, I can't imagine also giving birth because like the physical endurance of raising newborn as like a healthy male.

Chelsea (20:39)
Yeah.

Drew (20:58)
like was so hard but like on top of that the mental endurance of just like you are so tired and they like they can't do anything which is i know and it just feels so selfish and crazy to say because like he didn't ask for any of and that that's another thing that i'm trying to remind myself now like he's not giving

Chelsea (21:06)
Yeah.

No! No, you have to do literally everything!

Drew (21:27)
me a hard time. He's having a hard time. Like he didn't ask for this. This might not look like how I imagined, but this is exactly what I asked for. I wanted to be home. I wanted to have him. I wanted to be married. There's so much in my life to be grateful for. Now can I lose sight of that?

Chelsea (21:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Drew (21:55)
an instant, absolutely. All he has to do is not use his words or say please or thank you. And I'm like, but.

I can in the abstraction know that there's a good deal to be grateful for. And that, that for me is growth, unfortunately. Ha ha ha.

Chelsea (22:13)
That's not unfortunate. That's something that I've had to learn and honestly doing this and talking to parents has really reinforced this idea of duality in life and especially in parenting. You can be grateful and you can hate it. You can be grateful and you can be depressed. Both things can be true at the same time.

Drew (22:32)
Oh, yeah.

Yeah, and I think just making room for ourselves to know that like...

it's going to be okay. If you are this upset about something, like clearly you care enough. And just like as long as they are fed and like not bleeding. Yeah, everything else can like kind of work itself out. You know,

Chelsea (22:54)
Yeah.

Not actively dying.

Drew (23:08)
It's so different situation to situation and I do have so much support, especially now. Now that we've moved back to Vermont and my husband's family is close and I do have occasional childcare to lean on and Scott's out of residency.

My, the time that I felt so alone was so small compared to what I'm sure like many people experience. Yeah, and it felt so endless. Because when you're in it, you're just like, what do I do next? How do I get myself out of this mire?

Chelsea (23:37)
It's no less valid, though.

Yeah.

Yeah. And a word that kind of comes up a lot for a lot of my guests is isolating. Like, it just feels so isolating. And for you, that sounds especially true because like you said, you were in a place where you didn't have a big friend group and you were like alone with your son all day every day. So that's incredibly isolating.

So there were a few things that you mentioned when you were talking about your journey that I kind of want to touch upon. So it's kind of like going to feel like going backwards a little bit, but I want to make sure that we dive into them a little You talked about the stigma of being gay parents and how that sort of affected how you wanted to portray yourself.

There's also a stigma in terms of men's mental health in general, and how you're just not supposed to talk about it. And there's a stigma as a parent to just not talk about the hard stuff. So I guess this is a two part question. One would be,

when was the moment for you that you were like, fuck that noise, I need help?

Drew (25:01)
So, when was the moment when I said, collect that voice? Like I mentioned before, I struggled with addiction and deep in my addiction, I used to say almost this kind of mantra I was very depressed then as well.

I would say, I hate it here, I wanna die. Like just over and over and over. And sometimes I would say it so much in my head that I'd accidentally say it out loud. And like people would be like, oh my God, I know it's so boring here, right? And I was like, oh, I've like actually like said like my deepest truth and like you think that I'm just like being droll.

When I was really depressed I started saying to myself, I hate it here, I wanna go home.

And it really scared me because I literally could not have been more home. You know? And I was worried about what that next step mentally would be for me. And so I started talking to Scott. And he suggested that I make

Chelsea (25:59)
Yeah. Yeah!

Drew (26:14)
getting into meetings more of a priority. And I started sharing in meetings about how much trouble I was having, not with drinking, but just mentally. And there's like such a beautiful community there. And the fellowship just kind of like really took me in and like people started checking in on me.

all the time. And like almost too much, you know? But like what is too much? When you're asking for help and you're giving it so readily, it's like only our job to like then try and receive that help. And then with trying to not give off this like perfect family vibe.

Chelsea (26:39)
Oh good. Yeah.

Yeah.

Drew (27:05)
I don't know if I've let go of that completely. I think some of that is internalized homophobia. I want to look just as happy as those Salt Lake City tradwives. No, I'm not all the time. Honestly, they look lobotomized.

Chelsea (27:07)
Ha ha

Yeah.

Drew (27:30)
I don't have to live in Utah, so I have more going for me than they do. That's unfair and unkind, but the whole compare and despair thing is there as well.

Chelsea (27:36)
Yes you do!

Drew (27:47)
It's apples to oranges, what other people have and what I do. So, so why start?

Chelsea (27:55)
Yeah, I think so it sounds like and because I'm the same way like I don't have to project I don't feel like I have to project like I'm not a Pinterest mom and I and I know that

Um, but I do feel like being a stay at home parent, I'm supposed to live up to this certain standard so I can relate to that extent, but it sounds like it's a work in progress. It's not beating you down every day anymore, but it's a work in progress.

Drew (28:30)
Yeah, I think a work in progress is a great way to put it. I mean, as a stay at home parent, you go to play group or whatever, there's always at least one parent there that seems to just really be getting it. And we showed up 10 minutes late, covered in God only knows what, and with only one shoe on and the other one.

Chelsea (28:47)
Yeah.

Drew (28:58)
hopefully is on the car.

Chelsea (29:00)
Hahaha

Drew (29:01)
And you know, I have jealous tendencies, and addiction mentality, and I'm just like, well, they're doing, and I'm not. And...

Just because someone else is doing what I'm not doing doesn't mean that they're more than I am. And the same way is just as if I'm doing something that someone else is doing, that means that they're less than I am.

So yeah, I've been trying to just let it be what it is, but when some well-meaning parent at whatever tries to give you some, I'm sure, well-meaning advice, it does make me be this is an audio medium. I just really, really drop my face. You can go tell yourself, you know what.

Chelsea (29:32)
I'm going to go to bed.

Yeah.

I feel that so deeply. And another thing that I'm hearing from a lot of guests and members of the support group is how we need to feel supported as parents, but the advice is just not It's just not helpful, and the comparison is just not helpful.

It's cool to say like, I feel you, or like, I've been there, but not like, oh yeah, like when my baby did that, this is what I did, and blah blah, but you're like, cool yeah, I tried that about 8,000 times and that didn't work for my kids, so.

Drew (30:33)
Yeah, we're all different and like all of our children are different. So why would the same solution work, you know, for everyone, 100% of the time?

Chelsea (30:46)
No, and it's exactly, and like you said, it's so well-intentioned, but for a lot of us, it just embeds more shame. It's just like, great, that worked for you, well it doesn't work for me. Yeah.

Drew (31:00)
Yes, yeah. And I think that's why when I was talking about like, this is what I did help with my feelings of postpartum depression, like I tried to mention like, this isn't prescriptive. Like, I'm not saying like, go out there and do exactly what I did. Like, I am. Yeah, I'm a 33 year old high school grad.

Chelsea (31:14)
Yeah, yeah. Start teaching Pilates and...

Drew (31:22)
Like what do I know? Like I'm a former addict. Like you, you go do you. Like I'm over here just like making it through the day. Like, I, yeah, exactly. Like Jessica Simpson said, we all put our pants on one leg at a time. So.

Chelsea (31:35)
like the rest of us.

Did Jessica Simpson say that?

Drew (31:47)
Yeah, I think so. I'm like, I have like a vague memory of like an MTV commercial where she said that. And I was like, you know what, right?

Chelsea (31:56)
That's like a really old adage, Drew. That's something that like, that's like something my grandfather used to say.

Drew (32:00)
LOL

I think of Jessica Simpson saying, it makes me feel better.

Chelsea (32:06)
Okay, I think from now on that's all I'm gonna be able to picture.

Drew (32:14)
I think she mentions some things about like her being jewel-encrusted, but all I took away from it is like, you know, she puts on her pants too.

Chelsea (32:23)
Yeah, we all do. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. Hashtag Jessica Simpson. I love that. Oh my god. So you talked about your coping skills. It sounds like, having a history with...

Drew (32:30)
Yeah.

Chelsea (32:40)
mental health disorders and addiction sort of helps you already have some tools in your toolbox, which is amazing. Did you know of slash utilize any resources specific to your needs? And I ask this is like a really wide open question.

Drew (33:04)
specific to my postpartum depression.

Chelsea (33:07)
your postpartum depression, being male and having depression? Were you aware of any resources specific to your needs?

Drew (33:17)
Um, I was made aware of like counseling if I wanted it through via our family medicine doc, but it felt like such an admission of failure. that I was like, I'm fine. We're doing great at home. So no. Um, I did Google.

Chelsea (33:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Drew (33:45)
whole ton so I did know that statistic that I was one in ten but no I didn't I didn't search out a group for new parents or new fathers even and I think that could have been helpful I have a real hard time with

Chelsea (33:50)
Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Drew (34:13)
prejudging situations based on, you know, my preconceived notions of what something is gonna be. And so like, even though I go to a woo-woo group that helps me with my alcoholism, I was like, I'm not going to some woo-woo parenting group to talk about my feelings. And I wish I had, you know, maybe it would have really changed things for me for the better, quicker.

Chelsea (34:32)
Mm-hmm.

Drew (34:39)
And maybe I would have felt more of a community in Rochester and made some friends there, but I didn't. And I don't know.

Chelsea (34:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, so the reason I asked that question...

is I ask a lot of our moms if they know about resources that are available to them, and I ask it intentionally because resources are so limited. So I want to know where the deficits are, but the deficits are even bigger when you are a dad, and they're even bigger when

So I'm also taking this moment to put a small plug in for Postpartum Support International. I share a lot of their content and I did not know that they existed until after I needed them. So, but they are like the most nationally recognized program and they have support groups, virtual support groups and in-person support groups for literally every demographic. They have,

an LGBTQIA plus specific group, they have a BIPOC community group, they have a group for parents who have experienced loss, they have a group, literally anything you can think of, any type of parent or caregiver, they have a support group for it. So there's Me's Telling Listeners, Postpartum Support International. Now bringing it back to you, what I want to know is...

If you could have designed the most perfect support for you in that moment, or those moments, what would that have looked like?

I'm putting you on the spot.

Drew (36:31)
Yeah... Uhhh...

I guess it would have been pretty much 100% online because I didn't...

Chelsea (36:36)
Yeah.

Drew (36:39)
Want to take him anywhere and mess up the sleep schedule

Chelsea (36:43)
I feel that! Oh my god. Do not fuck with nap time.

Drew (36:48)
Pretty much exactly what you described. I would have rather spoke to queer parents, but really it would have been nice to talk to some other new gay dads. I still don't know a lot of gay fathers. Everyone always touts Vermont as being so welcoming.

and liberal and it is those things but it's not an incredibly diverse community.

Chelsea (37:23)
No, we're not a village of gays. Like, you've got two gays with you right now, but like, we're not just a village of gays frolicking in the cow fields. Yeah.

Drew (37:26)
Yeah, yeah.

It would be nice if it were that, for sure. Yeah, so I think getting to talk to other gay fathers would have been helpful in getting to talk to other gay fathers that were experiencing you know, postpartum and imposter syndrome and other emotions that go on when you're raising a new board would have been...

Chelsea (37:56)
Yeah.

Drew (38:03)
awesome so if we're lucky enough to have a second child and I'm unfortunate enough to experience this again I'll know where to turn.

Chelsea (38:07)
Ha ha ha.

Now you know to look to Postpartum Support International. Hopefully that doesn't happen, that you would need that resource.

Drew (38:18)
Yeah, I am aware though, if you have experienced it once, you are more likely to experience it again. And so it does worry me, but I am hopeful that, again, if we are lucky enough, it's harder for us to get going than it is some. But if we are lucky enough to have another child, I hope that I'm more comfortable.

Chelsea (38:36)
Yeah.

Drew (38:46)
immediately saying, this is hard. Because who can fault someone for admitting what a hard time they're having? I think at least what I've found when I'm honest with people about what I'm experiencing.

I've never experienced rejection, at least around this topic.

Chelsea (39:03)
Yeah!

Right, right. I think that surprises so many people. And what we're trying to do, and what I'm trying to do with Quiet Connection is break that stigma. Make these conversations normal. Because when you do say it out loud...

I can't even tell you how many times I've had people tell me like, I met with support or I met with like, yeah, that happened to me too. And it's like, if you're not talking about it, then we can't connect with each other. And if we can't connect with each other, then we're not going to get the support that we need. So talk about it, please.

I'm really good at talking to I guess so. You would think, but I don't like listening to myself talk at all.

Drew (39:44)
That's why you have a podcast.

Oh yeah, I won't be listening to your- I'll download it for sure, but I won't be listening. I'm sorry.

Chelsea (39:57)
That's okay. It's totally fine. Um, I don't blame you. I don't listen to my episodes because I have to edit them. So I have to listen to them over and over and over and over. Yes.

Drew (40:05)
You've listened to them enough, yeah? Yeah, I always think back on, we went to Disney World when I was like, I don't know, nine or something. They had this thing where you could like, dub your voices over like the famous characters. And I did one and like, I remember like really going for it and like having fun. And then it like started.

Chelsea (40:25)
Hehehehe

Drew (40:28)
playing back and I had like got this like sick feeling and just had to walk away and then heard another family be like oh I guess that's just an example of how you could do it and I was like

Chelsea (40:43)
I love how open and honest you have been about your whole journey up until this point. Is mental health something that you plan to be open about with your son and talk about with him as he gets older?

Drew (41:01)
Yeah, I definitely want him to be aware of, you know, especially the effects of drugs and alcohol, but like just we get sad sometimes, you know, and we already talk about that now, like, you know, he's had someone take a toy from him, or he's had someone say no when he has to play.

Chelsea (41:16)
Yeah.

Drew (41:30)
And we say like, you know, it's okay to feel sad. It's okay that hurt you. And like, you know, Bubba feels, we call me Bubba and my husband, Dad. Bubba feels sad sometimes too. And when we feel sad, what we have to do is ask someone for help and tell them that we're not feeling okay. And so he's two, so he's, he'll,

Chelsea (41:41)
Okay.

Drew (42:00)
someone will disappoint him and he'll say, I'm not okay.

Chelsea (42:04)
Is he like, is he closer to 3 or is he a new 2?

Drew (42:07)
He's a, he was a middle two. He was born in November and we're recording this in February. So like, he's like a middle two. Oh, well it's March 1st, right? Or 2nd. So it's like, well, you know, I'm a stay at home parent. Like.

Chelsea (42:10)
Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Drew, it's March.

It's March 3rd. It's okay. I know time doesn't make sense, but I'm like, no, we finished February. Don't take February away. We finished it. We're through it.

Drew (42:34)
So I guess does that make him closer to three? I don't know. Sure.

Chelsea (42:38)
I don't know. Well, the only reason I ask is so my youngest is 20 months. So she's not quite too yet, but she's just barely starting to be like, Mad. That's a bit mad. OK.

Drew (42:54)
Yeah. His language in the last really three to four months has exploded. Because for a minute there I was like, oh, are we doing this?

Chelsea (43:02)
Yeah.

I have those moments too, I'm like, are you gonna start? But yeah, no, no. I only ask because that, while that is an adorable, like I am not okay, that's an adorable way to say it, that's also really developmentally ahead.

Drew (43:28)
He's special, what can I say?

Chelsea (43:32)
Well, no, but you've done it. It speaks to what is important to you as a parent and you've given him those tools to express himself and say, I'm not okay. And that's no, for real. Give yourself credit for that because that's great. I also am going to steal that from you now though. So I've got the Jessica Simpson thing that I'm stealing from you and now I'm stealing the I'm not okay because I love that.

Drew (43:42)
I hope so. Thank you.

Hahaha

Chelsea (43:59)
Um, it's adorable and accurate. I think I'm going to start saying it. I am not okay.

I genuinely am so thankful that I've been able to have this exchange with you and that I've been able to get your perspective because I will tell you I do, I've talked to a few dads but most of them are very reluctant.

and very hesitant to sort of get into the nitty gritty of the experience. And I think a lot of that comes from shame, and a lot of that comes from gender stereotypes that are pressed upon us. So I just, I love how open and easy this conversation has I always end my episodes...

with one of two questions, but I think I'm gonna ask you both. Both of them. I'm gonna challenge The first one being, what do you hope others take from your story? People who are listening right now, dads, or gay dads, or partners, or any of what specifically what do you hope they take from your story?

Drew (45:12)
You're doing great. You're not doing it perfectly, but you're doing great. And you love your child as best as you can. And that's all they need. And that's all you need to give. And like, I am enough and you are enough. And that's all I ever wanted to be, was to feel like I was enough for myself and for someone else. And I...

I am today and I might not feel like that in 20 minutes, but I will be able to find it again.

Chelsea (45:40)
I'm out.

I love that and I anticipate now that I know the answer to this next question, but if you could go back in time.

before becoming a parent and before experiencing postpartum depression, and you could instill something within yourself. You can't tell yourself what you're gonna go through, but you can instill something within yourself to get you through what would you instill in yourself?

Drew (46:11)
Hopefully, I would know more about the stock exchange.

But... but barring that...

I guess I would want to tell him like, I love you. And like, we work so hard to be here and we're here now. And.

This is going to be the hardest thing you've ever done and it's going to be the thing that you cherish the most on top of it too.

Chelsea (46:41)
Yeah, I love that. I've never gotten the same answer And this talk exchange thing killed me because everybody takes it so seriously. And this is the same thing, like listeners, I have all my guests fill out a little questionnaire before our thing. And Drew's was so like, it f-

Drew (46:49)
I'm sorry.

Chelsea (47:03)
I was talking to you. I was like, this is gonna be... You're like, oh my god, do people actually answer this question? So like...

Drew (47:11)
It was such a deep question in the Google Doc. I was like, oh, it's going to cut me off, I guess. But like, here you go.

Chelsea (47:18)
So like that just seems very on brand for you and I love it. I love it so much. But yeah, I love that. I love that you would tell yourself that you love yourself, like instill that within you. And yeah, it's the duality. It's the duality. It's really, really hard and it's really, really beautiful. And it can be both.

thank you so much for doing this. I cannot wait to have my listeners hear your story. And yeah, hopefully this is hopefully this is not the last time we chat because this was great.

Drew (47:54)
No, no, I have to start doing those writings, and so hopefully, and then like, I'll get invited to like a mom get-together, and then we'll get to hang out there.

Chelsea (48:03)
Yes! Here's another plug, Kinder Music. If you're looking for a reason to get out of the house, I love Kinder Music with Rachel. It's a Vermont

thank you again, Drew, so much. And and yeah, just like you said, one day at a time, one moment at a time.

Drew (48:23)
You're welcome so much. This has been lovely.