Marina T - Prolonged PMADS, ICP, and Healing through Art

Hey everyone! I wanted to let you know that we ran into a few technical hiccups while recording this episode. Unfortunately, the audio didn’t turn out quite right, and my wonderful guest, Marina, kindly requested that we take it down.

I totally respect her request! My main goal is to ensure that every story is shared in a way that feels comfortable and safe for everyone involved.

I am currently working on getting this audio fixed so that we may be able to re-release the episode. In the meantime, please check the transcript as well as Marina's blog post on my website, quietconnectionpodcast.com. Marina's story is powerful, and I believe it will resonate with so many of you.

Thank you for your understanding.

To Learn More About Marina:

• Instagram

Takeaways

• Marina shares her background and experiences living in Norway
• She emphasizes the importance of having time for hobbies and creative outlets
• Marina discusses her journey to motherhood and the shift in her mindset
• She opens up about the challenges she faced during pregnancy, including a rare condition called intrahepatic cholestasis of pregnancy (ICP) Intrahepatic cholestasis of pregnancy can cause intense itching and sleep disturbances
• Postpartum depression can last for an extended period of time and may be accompanied by feelings of confusion and isolation
• Cultural stigma and fear of pity can prevent mothers from seeking support for their mental health
• Engaging in creative outlets, such as art and writing, can provide a source of solace and aid in the recovery from postpartum depression 
• Sharing your story and seeking help is important for mental health and well-being.
• Breaking the stigma surrounding mental health is crucial to support and empower women.
• Every parent is doing great and will manage.
• It's okay to tell your story, no matter how messy or complicated it may be.

Sound Bites

• "I speak four languages, Kazakh, Russian, English and Norwegian."
• "I'm just going to follow the flow in a way. And while following the flow, I will also enjoy it."
• "I think we should have a child together, So that was the shift."
• "It was intense during the night. Imagine that when you want to sleep."
• "No, I think he knew what to do, but I think he was kind of worried if he could do anything because he never had it in his practice."
• "I felt like I was completely messed up down there because it happened so fast."
• "It was like a life vest."
• "The separation with my daughter hit me hard."
• "You cannot keep this in you."

Transcript

Chelsea (00:01)
Hi, welcome to Quiet Connection, a podcast dedicated to ending the stigma around postpartum mental health. I'm Chelsea. Today I'm chatting with Marina, an author, artist, and comic book writer, as she discusses her pregnancy and the difficulties she encountered, including a rare condition known as ICP. After giving birth, Marina experienced postpartum depression for almost five years, feeling overwhelmed, confused, and isolated.

She found solace in art and creativity, which eventually helped her come out of the spiral. Marina's comics and books aim to support and empower women, letting them know that they are not alone in their experiences. Let's hear from Marina.

Chelsea (00:50)
But today I'm here with Marina. Marina, how are you?

Marina Tjetland (00:54)
I'm good. I'm good. Thank you, Chelsea.

Chelsea (00:57)
Yeah, I'm happy to have you on. Marina, we are we connected through social media, which I love. I love when I kind of get to stumble on other parents who are who are on this journey. And it's just kind of like serendipity. just stumble across each other. So that was awesome. And I'm honored that you've chosen to come on Quiet Connection. So thank you for that. Straight out the gate.

I would love it if you could sort of introduce yourself to my listeners and let us know who you were before you became a parent.

Marina Tjetland (01:37)
Okay, yes, I will do that gladly. And I also want to say that I'm quite honored to be invited to your podcast, Chelsea. It's my second podcast. One I had a few months ago here in Norway and I'm very excited. my name is Marina or Marina.

Chelsea (02:00)
You

Marina Tjetland (02:06)
I live in Norway. I've lived in Norway for 14 years since 2010 and I'm originally from Kazakhstan. I speak four languages, Kazakh, Russian, English and Norwegian. On my daily life, I use mostly English since I live in Norway. Of course, you could say that's why not Norwegian, but I'm just used to using English more than the region.

I do speak Norwegian with my daughter, she's 6. I do speak English and Russian and Kazakh with her, but she answers in Norwegian and becomes just Norwegian conversation.

And I think we learn from each other every day. And it doesn't matter if she's a child and I'm adult. We have a certain experience and yeah, and that does mean that we know everything.

And before becoming a mother, well, I came to Norway in 2010 and I have a law degree. And I have, I've worked in various fields like procurement, project management, contract management.

HR recruitment and logistics. And also my last position was a law advisor. Sounds very serious, but it was fun.

Chelsea (03:44)
long as it was fun.

Marina Tjetland (03:46)
Yeah, absolutely. No, I'm quite happy with my working background. I got to meet quite many interesting people and got to experience many challenging situations and also coming to Norway and working here is a big difference. It's a different working environment and it's different culture and I like it.

Chelsea (04:06)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (04:13)
because the balance between family and work is very good here. So the working, yeah, no, it's true. And like working hours are very flexible, especially if you have small kids or family and if it's nice weather.

Chelsea (04:22)
Yeah, I've heard that.

wow. That's nice. That's not something that we're used to here in the US.

Marina Tjetland (04:45)
Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure you're not used to, but here it's like, when you say that people, when they have nothing else to talk about, they start talking about weather, right? No, that's a normal thing here. It's not an empty topic. It's very important topic to talk about weather because the weather is so unpredictable, but in a way it's very predictable because it's most of the time what we get is

Chelsea (04:56)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (05:15)
grey rainy days. And complaining about it is quite a vital thing here in culture.

Chelsea (05:17)
huh.

can only imagine.

Marina Tjetland (05:27)
Still, mean, it's like we have this joke. The best Norwegian summer is the best day of the year.

Chelsea (05:41)
our Norwegian summer's the best of the year. my gosh. That's really funny. It's, that's really, well, and it's, it's kind of fitting because today here in my home in Vermont, it is completely gray and, and rainy. And so we're, we're, I'm vibing with you right now, I guess.

Marina Tjetland (06:03)
Yeah, no, I can even feel that, no, just kidding.

Chelsea (06:08)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (06:09)
No.

Chelsea (06:09)
my gosh. So yeah, so you're in Norway now and you have had a very interesting and fulfilling work life. What kind of things bring you joy? What kind of things fill your cup as a person?

Marina Tjetland (06:12)
That's it.

Yeah, that's a very interesting question because without my hobbies, I wouldn't say nothing, but it's a very important part of my life. And whenever I didn't have time for my hobbies, whenever I had to work overtime and then meet the deadlines and all the other stressful things, then I felt even more stressed because

Chelsea (06:37)
You

Marina Tjetland (06:56)
because I felt like I'm just, what am I doing? is not something I really want to do. And the things what keep me burning or like, I don't know,

enjoying my life is actually I'm quite a creative person and I'm very into experimenting when it comes to using different creative mediums and like I think I've tried everything watercolor, acrylics, like who said markers

Chelsea (07:39)
Yeah, markers.

Marina Tjetland (07:41)
Yeah, markers, pencils and graph graffiti or I tried and the funny part with me is that when I try those things and I have some projects and I finish them and then I say, yeah, that was fun. Then I'm moving on to something else. Yeah, then then I also enjoyed doing graphic design and even creative coding.

Chelsea (08:00)
On to

Marina Tjetland (08:11)
So those sometimes I feel like I don't have enough time. I should have 48 hours a day, not 24 because I'm so excited about so many things and I'm so curious and I really want to try everything out. So yeah, so then I think sometimes I think like, of course, I tend to think that I'm an introvert and I think I am in a way.

Chelsea (08:16)
Yeah.

Mmm. I - same. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (08:39)
Yeah, so it's because I do like my friends and I do like spending time with them. but if it's I don't really like crowds, for example, and the main place where I recharge my energy and and and sort of get this room for to reflect to what I've experienced is my own space. So I need to get my own space and

Chelsea (09:04)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (09:06)
quite important to me and I don't think I understood it quite... There were times when I felt like, why am I so weirdo? Why am I so slow?

Chelsea (09:18)
Hahaha

You drained your battery! You drained your social battery! You needed to recharge!

Marina Tjetland (09:30)
Yeah, no, I started to understand that part of me quite late, actually. But before that, I thought, yeah, no, that's true. it was, whenever I didn't have time to actually do my projects, then I felt like stress.

Chelsea (09:37)
Yeah, at least you got there.

Marina Tjetland (09:50)
actually I remember that when my manager came to me and she said, we're sorry, we cannot prolong your contract and I was the contractor. And I had to make sure that I have that face, appropriate face, but inside me,

So happy.

Chelsea (10:08)
you

You were like, thank God.

Marina Tjetland (10:10)
I was so happy and I thought like, okay, wow, this is such a good news. But I felt bad for having this feeling joy that I'm actually not going to be working more. I also enjoyed traveling.

I've traveled a lot within Europe. It's close and it's culturally diverse. You can experience so many different things and the cultures and they are so interesting and different, completely different from one another. I just came from Greece a few days ago.

Chelsea (10:34)
Mm

Yeah.

wow.

How was that?

Marina Tjetland (10:57)
it was great. It was hot though, but it was great. mean, we were in the island. They had the island with no vehicles and it was just donkeys and cats. No bicycles, nothing. have to walk. But the only transport they used was boats. So they were like getting

Chelsea (10:58)
Yeah

Mm -hmm.

Okay.

Marina Tjetland (11:26)
from one to be from outside of the island, not internally, because it's just a lot of mountains inside the island. No, they're also absolutely beautiful. And the food and people, it's just so different.

Chelsea (11:36)
That's so cool. Yeah.

That's so, I just had a friend come back from Greece and I'm so envious. I want to go. I think it's so, this is completely off topic, but I think that it's so cool that in Europe you literally can just go visit a different country. it's not, so like the U S is so huge that it would take me days if I was driving to

Marina Tjetland (12:13)
Yeah.

Chelsea (12:13)
go across the country. And even then, like, I'd have to not stop. But like, in Europe, you can just like drive to a neighboring country and it's a whole new culture and it's a whole new experience. And I'm so envious. I'm so envious of that. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (12:15)
Right.

Absolutely.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, no, originally I'm from Kazakhstan, so we have completely different culture there and mentality. Yes, and we used to be part of the Soviet Union, so I got that part too.

Chelsea (12:40)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of culture shock. A lot of culture shock in in the different places that you've lived, I'm sure.

steering us a little bit back to motherhood. Did you did you always envision yourself being a mother? Is that something that you always wanted to do?

Marina Tjetland (12:59)
Yeah.

I'm not really sure if I ever envisioned myself as a mother, but maybe for some period. it's like, as I said, I'm from Kazakhstan and we have different culture and also expectations from family. at a certain age, you get married and then you start your family.

Chelsea (13:26)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (13:36)
And at the same time, you also need to get education and to not waste your time. You need to date someone and get to know each other and blah, blah, blah and all these expectations. And I think I feel like an outsider most of the time because I do have my strong opinion about what I want. And whenever I heard like you should do this, I would say it was...

not your life, it's my life. And I should be deciding what I need to do and what I don't need to do. And I married when I was 28.

Chelsea (14:06)
Yeah!

Marina Tjetland (14:19)
here in Norway. came in 2010 and then we married in 2011 next year. and of course at that time I think I had this thought that I want to be mother. So that would be that next step in a way. But I'm not sure if it was coming from me or just me trying to serve these expectations in a way.

but he already had kids from the previous marriage and then he said I don't really want to now have kids and they said fine it's not a crucial thing for me and I can't wait and if it's not gonna happen I don't think I thought about it that way but

just after some years, I kind of started enjoying my life. And I felt like it's not something that you have to. And then I started like thinking, I don't think I will be a mother. And I'm okay with that. And I was getting completely fine, not more than fine. was actually getting excited for how many things I can do.

Yeah,

Chelsea (15:39)
Yeah! Yeah!

When did that shift to... Okay, maybe. I guess maybe we will have a baby.

Marina Tjetland (15:48)
Well, it was a clear time when it, I mean, I remember that moment when it shifted, but it wasn't shifted by me. It was my partner. That time he suggested that he said that he wants to have a child with me. And I think I was flexible again. And I felt like, okay, why not?

Chelsea (15:57)
Mm.

Marina Tjetland (16:13)
I just felt like I'm just going to follow the flow in a way. And while following the flow, I will also enjoy it. So if it doesn't happen, it doesn't. And if it happens, happens.

So when my partner asked me to, what do you think if we, because I really, he said that I really, really want to have a child with you. And actually, of course it flattered me. And then he said also, I think I really believe you will be an amazing mother. so that made me like,

Chelsea (16:40)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (16:51)
sure is, yeah, maybe I should try it. I think we should have a child together, that was the shift.

Chelsea (17:00)
Yeah, going from, don't want any more kids and you being completely okay with that to like, well actually, I think you'd be a great mother. I mean, isn't that, that's, I think we all want to hear that. You'd make a great mother. okay. I guess maybe let's try that then.

Marina Tjetland (17:17)
Yeah, exactly. No, he was good in convincing me. He was good in choosing the words. Yeah,

Chelsea (17:27)
Yeah, clearly!

was pregnancy like for you?

Marina Tjetland (17:33)
Yeah, it's so... Well, last time when I was asked this question at the podcast, just actually said it was good, but it was not.

Chelsea (17:44)
It's that default answer, right? It's like when someone asks you how you're doing. How are you? I'm fine. How was your pregnancy? it was good. No, you can be real. You can be real here.

Marina Tjetland (17:49)
Yes!

Yeah

Yes, you're right, it was the default answer actually. But I guess I meant it was good in one way, but it wasn't really good as I expected. I expected that it would be good, it would be something pleasant. like, I don't know what I expected, but I expected it would be good, but it was not.

Chelsea (18:21)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (18:21)
The thing is that we went through was sterilized and we had to go through IVF and that was, and we managed from the first try. But the good thing is that we had full control over the embryo or the cells.

how they develop, how they divide from two to four. And they said that it's a perfect form, it's a perfect size and everything is beautiful and they chose the best one. And of course also having control over my diet and taking hormones and not drinking alcohol and all these things, it's just kind of made me

feel comfortable or in control that everything is good. Everything is fine with baby but I didn't know how I would react. So and of course for me it was never ending headache, feeling sick all the time and I couldn't tolerate any smell like food. could smell it from...

Chelsea (19:19)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mmm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Marina Tjetland (19:41)
distance. and we really tried to find what I can eat because I needed to eat something. And it was actually boiled potatoes and boiled, actually quite a good quality beef meat. And it was a shame to boil it.

Chelsea (20:07)
That's really interesting. So, Boiled. Boiled was your go -to.

Marina Tjetland (20:12)
Yeah, because it had a flat taste and we tried with pasta and rice. just so, I couldn't eat it at all. I felt sick and it was vomiting and yeah, but it worked with this boiled meat and boiled potatoes with a little pinch of salt. and I think I ate it for three, four months every day.

Yeah, no, I hated food at that time. And then, of course, my partner, he also had a hard time. had like, we have a living room and the kitchen together. So and he couldn't make food for himself.

Chelsea (20:59)
Mm

No, because you could smell it.

Marina Tjetland (21:05)
I'm not losing.

Chelsea (21:06)
no.

Marina Tjetland (21:07)
But he was kind, I mean he understood that, so that was fine. So that was the physical part. mean the mental part, I don't think I had any problems during pregnancy, so I felt kind of I was on a mission. So because I had the baby inside me and then I had this clear mission that I need to make sure that I'm okay.

Chelsea (21:24)
Mmm.

Mm

Marina Tjetland (21:36)
I think I started enjoying my pregnancy on the sixth, seventh month. it was everything was as any normal pregnancy. Then I would have my cravings and the main craving was fish and seafood products.

Chelsea (21:42)
Okay.

Mmm.

Marina Tjetland (21:56)
That time we traveled to Portugal and now I got plenty of that, so that was great.

Chelsea (22:01)
cool. Nice.

Marina Tjetland (22:03)
Yeah, that was absolutely great. But the last month of pregnancy was horror. when I say horror, you don't know. You don't know exactly what it was. I'm not sure if you heard about this condition called, ICP.

Chelsea (22:09)
Mmm...

No. No!

Marina Tjetland (22:26)
it's the choleostasis of pregnancy, intracepatic or something. So basically leakage of acid from a gallbladder into a bloodstream.

Chelsea (22:39)
Okay. my gosh. That happened in your last month of pregnancy?

Marina Tjetland (22:45)
Yes, and that's a typical condition for some women as I read later. And I started reading about it because it's a very rare thing. think it's less than 0 .1 % of women experience that. So I was very honored to be that special.

Chelsea (22:53)
Wow.

You got lucky.

my gosh, what did you have? What was that? Was there any treatment? What did you have to do for that?

Marina Tjetland (23:14)
Thank

Well, what it did to me, first of all, is I had extreme itching. It's like I was burning from inside out. So you have heard of this, yes.

Chelsea (23:24)
Yes, I have heard of this. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I just didn't know the name, but yes continue. I'm sorry to interrupt you

Marina Tjetland (23:35)
Now, that was extremely itchy, especially palms and feet and somehow my back. So, and you cannot see anything on the skin. There's nothing, but sometimes I just wanted to take a fork and really scratch myself like nonstop.

Chelsea (23:44)
Mm

Mmm.

my gosh.

Marina Tjetland (23:54)
It's not a point that it's painful, just like this itchiness that drives you crazy. And it was intense during nights. Imagine that when you want to sleep.

Chelsea (24:06)
Ugh, yeah, when you need your sleep.

Marina Tjetland (24:09)
Yeah, I think for two weeks I couldn't sleep. I hardly slept maybe like for one or two hours for every day because then I would fall asleep from feeling exhausted completely. I had cold showers. I was lying naked on cold tiles. was like keeping my teeth in the cold water.

Chelsea (24:16)
Ugh.

my gosh.

Marina Tjetland (24:38)
so many things I tried, but of course we went to my doctor and my doctor was completely like, I never experienced this, I know what it is, but it's like she was completely lost there and we started telling him what we read in Google and he was like, shouldn't read Google that much.

Chelsea (24:58)
my god, you're like, but you don't know what to do.

Marina Tjetland (25:03)
No, I think he knew what to do, but I think he was kind of worried if he can do anything because he never had it in his practice. then there's no precedent for him or reference to relate to. But then he said, you coming.

Chelsea (25:15)
Yeah.

Mm

Marina Tjetland (25:27)
twice a week and we taking your blood and it's been sent to different cities because even our city didn't have the equipment for those kind of blood But luckily he took a holiday, my doctor. And then I go another doctor. Yes.

Chelsea (25:43)
You took a holiday? so you got another doctor. You got another doctor.

Marina Tjetland (25:47)
Yeah, substitute for him and he was a foreign doctor. I mean, he was working in Norway, but with a foreign experience and luckily he had experience and he prescribed me medication. So, the itching went down, but I still checked. I still did the tests and because they needed to see the level of the acid in my blood because one of the scary things or the

what it could cause, was a baby's heart could stop anytime at a certain level of the acid in the blood. But of course, they also said, we don't know your reaction and how it goes because every person is individual. that was my last month. I was worried.

like how so it's

Chelsea (26:42)
Yeah, and you weren't sleeping?

Marina Tjetland (26:44)
No, it was a very intense month and when I said it was a horror, it was a horror. I really meant it.

Chelsea (26:51)
Yeah. Yeah, I believe you. I believe you a hundred percent. Yeah, I have heard of that condition. just could, I couldn't recall the name. As soon as you talked about the itching, I was like, I know exactly what this is. Correct me I'm wrong. It resolves after delivery, right?

Marina Tjetland (27:10)
No, no, no, it was before, was the last month of pregnancy.

Chelsea (27:12)
No?

Well, no, but the itching stops after as soon as you have baby It stops. Yes Okay. Okay Yeah, that's so our bodies are so weird Our bodies are so strange Yeah So

Marina Tjetland (27:20)
Yes, it stops. It stops. Yes.

Yeah, it's Yes, it is true.

Chelsea (27:36)
So you went through a pretty terrible first trimester. You got a little bit of a break there in the middle. And then right at the end, you got slammed with the horror of that whole experience. Now you've got, now you've got baby. I'm taking us down the path. Now you've got baby. You're brand new first time mom.

Marina Tjetland (27:52)
Yeah.

Chelsea (28:03)
How are you feeling about that? After all of that.

Marina Tjetland (28:08)
Well, my childbirth would say good. mean, it was a good experience for me. It was really fast though. It was really fast and everyone was so surprised because it's my first time. And I had...

Chelsea (28:18)
It was fast.

Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (28:27)
I have minor complications, but it is connected to this condition, itching condition, because this acid eats up the K -vitamin and blood, which is responsible for clotting. So I lost a lot of blood without them noticing. if I, because I pointed out, I asked my partner, could you check? I'm not sure, like after like three hours or something, I asked him,

Chelsea (28:40)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (28:56)
feel like I'm peeing non -stop. What is it? I remember I thought to myself, maybe it's normal. And then I just thought, okay, probably it's just normal. And I didn't ask, but then I asked eventually after like two and a half hours something. I remember I saw his face, it was like, And he immediately called for help and then they got the...

Chelsea (29:04)
Mmm.

Marina Tjetland (29:20)
I remember and then other people came and they started checking me so then I remember they said like you know she lost blood more than later or something or something like that so and but but I do recover fast and I recovered fast after that I got old intravenous you call it I don't know I call it in English yeah okay and

Chelsea (29:34)
wow.

Yeah. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (29:47)
all the injections to do the clotting. So we have this in Norway. It's a very good system here in a way. Some people manage to complain, of course, but it also comes from individual experiences and it's also a human factor, whoever you meet as the nurse and midwife. But my midwife was amazing.

Chelsea (30:14)
good.

Marina Tjetland (30:15)
Yeah, no, she was a really good old Swedish woman. And she really took care of me. And then also in Norway, we have this, it's called Barthel Hotel. It's something which is after hospital, like the you give birth and give you this room. It's like a hotel, but it's still connected to the hospital.

Chelsea (30:27)
Okay.

Marina Tjetland (30:40)
where you can stay with your partner and go downstairs and get a breakfast. It's like a hotel. Yeah, and then the difference also that the nurse comes to check how you're doing and helps you with breastfeeding and to have also courses here, rooms where you get these lectures and useful information about

Chelsea (30:45)
wow. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (31:06)
breastfeeding for example. I remember I got quite a few tears on my vagina and that was a very scary thing for me. I felt like I was completely messed up down there because it happened so fast and I feel like I remember when I was giving birth I felt like okay you have to do it now.

Chelsea (31:15)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (31:31)
You have to do it now. It's like you put everything what you have. I don't want to sit here or lie here for 24 hours. And there's all these flashbacks from all these stories from my friends. Like it was just circling in my head and I felt like I don't want to do this. I don't want to have any of those stories. I remember I pushed her out in eight minutes.

Chelsea (31:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Gosh.

Marina Tjetland (32:01)
I don't think it's all my credit, but I guess, I don't know, but it happened so fast. I think I was just very lucky in that sense.

Chelsea (32:10)
but you had to get stitches, I'm assuming.

Marina Tjetland (32:13)
Yes, I got quite a few stitches, I think it was after that. I didn't feel anything when they were stitching me. But after that, I remember in that Barstool Hotel, I felt like, my God, how am I going to go to toilet? I felt like I just, I want to get the brand new one.

Chelsea (32:23)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (32:36)
I don't have that world anymore. This is just ruined.

Chelsea (32:45)
Did you do the - We all - We have this thing here. I don't know if it's everywhere, but we're like, don't look. Just don't look at it. Like, for like three months, just don't look down there. Did you look down there? Okay, you just knew. You're like, nope, this - I don't want - I need a new one, please.

Marina Tjetland (32:58)
No. No. No.

Yes, I know it was just so I felt like it's completely ruined, it's messed up. But it went fine. mean, after a few days, I think he was getting better and better. And I didn't have problems with breastfeeding. The thing is that when I remember the moment when I got Mia, my breast, when she was born, I felt like,

I don't really want to have her on my breast. I just want to be alone. And I'm tired, I'm flat. But I remember the midwife, she said, she looked at me and I felt like she judged me. But she didn't. I'm pretty sure she didn't. Yeah. But it felt that way for me. And I do have it in my comic book, that scene, particularly that scene that she felt like she was judging me.

Chelsea (33:38)
Yeah.

no. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (34:03)
She was not pretty sure. She said that it's a good way to for you and for your baby and then you both will feel less stressed in that sense. didn't really, it was, to be honest, was an alien experience or feeling for me because when she started sucking my breast and I felt this

Chelsea (34:13)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (34:32)
reversing me going. It was just so surreal. And I don't, I didn't get to the point that it was good. It just felt weird. I couldn't relate to it at all. it's, and that was my first time. But, but then when I did it the second time, it was in our room and that was just me and her and, and half dark room in a way, some kind of intimacy between

Chelsea (34:37)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (35:02)
us, each other and that felt amazing. It was also the same rivers going through me but it felt different. I think I got to the point that I am a mother now. This is it. I love her so much and she's the most beautiful thing on earth.

Chelsea (35:06)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (35:30)
So it was just so big in me, growing, not growing, but just like, I felt it. I think that was the time I felt that I am a mother.

Chelsea (35:42)
Yeah, I'm glad that that that that happened that that initial feeling is so not uncommon, though, like what you were describing. I can remember vividly with my first then put it like putting her on my chest and then putting her on my breast and me being like, this is weird. Like this. Can you can we not? Can we not do this right now, please?

Marina Tjetland (36:04)
Yes.

Chelsea (36:11)
so I 100 % relate to that. but it sounds like you did get to have what we call the golden hour, like that, that moment with your baby, we're like, okay, I'm a, I'm a mom now. This is, this is my baby.

Marina Tjetland (36:27)
Yes.

Chelsea (36:29)
so.

In those early postpartum days, you had mentioned to me that you experienced some postpartum depression and that it was prolonged. Like, I would love to hear it from you because you went through it for quite a while.

Marina Tjetland (36:49)
Yes, almost. I think it was a bit more than four years, but don't think I understood what I was going through. And also my psychologist, he didn't want to put labels on anything. And I do understand him in a way, but I think...

Chelsea (36:56)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (37:12)
I think my conclusion was that I went through a long postpartum depression because it's quite a complex experience. I mean, the first year was...

was kind of a fog for me. I couldn't understand and at the same time I tried to gain control and but it was like clashes between identities and I couldn't really get myself in the way who I am now and what what should I do what should I feel in a way

Chelsea (37:29)
Mm.

Marina Tjetland (37:47)
before that it was the feeling, what is wrong with me? It's like, why am I feeling all this? You're a mother now, you have to sharpen up and like do it. And I'm used to being very hard on myself. I'm working on that now, it was difficult for me to...

Chelsea (37:52)
Mm.

Marina Tjetland (38:09)
sort of like get myself together and I couldn't, the feelings were completely overwhelming and was a lot and then suddenly my intuition was sharper and I could see all scenes in my head that about my daughter that she's dying and this and that and this situation and

Chelsea (38:22)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (38:34)
And yeah, all these worries about that I won't manage. And it was just all big mess. The first year, it was just all big mess. And then also one night, I remember I was looking at my daughter and she was by the way, an exception, it was an exceptional baby. She slept.

Chelsea (39:00)
man.

Marina Tjetland (39:00)
so good and sometimes I had to check if she's breathing at all. So, and I didn't have any problems with breastfeeding. She didn't have any colic. Everything was perfect and that was additional stress for me. Like why, why am I not feeling good? I mean, what is, what is wrong with you? Come on. So, and I think I really stressed myself in that sense and really

Chelsea (39:05)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (39:30)
like didn't want to look into the core problem because I didn't want to see it. And it's not like people around me were like expecting too much, but I think your main expectations are made by ourselves in a way to meet

Chelsea (39:39)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (39:55)
societies, the expectations, are like vice versa, all connected all the time because you get some impressions and then you feel like, I have to deliver that way. And especially when everyone is saying, you're so lucky, she's so beautiful, she's healthy, and my God, she's sleeping all the time, you can do so much. And then I felt like, I have to do this, I have to do all this.

Chelsea (40:10)
Ugh.

Marina Tjetland (40:22)
much things. Yeah, and I remember I was looking at her one night and I just started crying, like sobbing, crying in white outs. I felt so sorry for myself. that I looked at her and I thought like, okay, well,

Chelsea (40:24)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (40:43)
I really, really love her. I don't want to hurt her. I want to make sure that she's happy and content gets the understanding that she needs. Yeah, basically. And I felt at the same time that I didn't get any of that.

And then I started crying, feeling sorry for myself because I remember that sentence, like saying to myself how did she do that to me? My mother. did she, I don't know, it's like, it's just this sentence, like.

Chelsea (41:15)
Mmm. Mmm!

Marina Tjetland (41:22)
How could you do it to me? How could she? And then I just couldn't stop crying because it felt like for me, this love for my daughter, it was like a fire in my heart. And in my heart, I had so many locked doors. I locked them and I didn't want to deal with it.

Chelsea (41:26)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (41:50)
fire just burned everything and doors were open and all the ghosts from the past were coming to the surface and I felt like I didn't know what to do with it because usually in my old version of me then I managed to just put everything behind those doors and manage it well, whatever I was doing and that was additional stress which I was giving to myself like

you managed before, what are you doing with all these feelings? It's not like I was saying it in that sentence, but it just felt that way.

Chelsea (42:30)
Yeah, absolutely.

Marina Tjetland (42:32)
and I felt like I was just collapsing in that sense and I couldn't accept it at all. And it was additional responsibility that I am a mother and it was just all in circles. Yeah, and I felt like a mess, but I still managed to hide it. I think also the fact that

my partner decided to stay in a different room contributed to my left completely alone and it made me so sad because he said that I can't really sleep like when you're breastfeeding every three hours. that just made me even more alone in that sense. And I remember I was just looking at my daughter and I was saying, yeah,

It's just you and

Chelsea (43:22)
after after your partner was the one that was like, I want to have a baby, let's have a baby. And it's just you and it's just you and her. That is isolating. What I want to what I want to highlight too, is what you were feeling is so common. And like the pressures you were saying like there was no one directly telling you like

there was no one pressuring you one way or the other. This pressure and this idea of what you needed to be was sort of coming from yourself, also coming from societal standards. And then when you say like you're feeling sorry for yourself, like, that's okay. And it does not feel like that in the moment. In the moment when you're in it and you're sobbing, like, get it together, get it together.

Marina Tjetland (43:57)
Thank

Chelsea (44:15)
It's so valid to feel all the love, that you're saying, like, loved her fiercely, but I was also so sad and so confused. And that's really common. And I'm curious, you said you didn't really talk about it a whole bunch. You kind of tried to hold it together.

Marina Tjetland (44:40)
Yes, yeah, no, I didn't want to talk about it.

Chelsea (44:44)
Yeah, is, do you think that that is a cultural thing? Do you think it's a personal thing? Like, I'm not sure what the stigma is like in, mean, at anywhere really, other than in the US. In the US, there seems to be a little bit of a shift, but for decades and decades, we've been told...

Don't talk about it, suck it up, get back to work, like, get on with your life and move on. do you, is there, is there a stigma around mom's mental health? Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (45:14)
Yeah.

In Kazakhstan, Yes, so I grew up in that stigma and I'm also a single child and the only person I had was my mother. I'm also in addition to everything, I'm quite used to not talking about my feelings and not talking about my personal things that much. it was also there was a shame involved.

Chelsea (45:46)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (45:47)
in sense that I'm in Norway and I just didn't want anyone to sorry for me. it's also some kind of thing that it's not like I heard from people saying it, but the first thing what I thought was that, okay, so she came from different country, no wonder she came.

Chelsea (46:12)
you thought you thought other people would be thinking that? yeah

Marina Tjetland (46:15)
Yes, yes, that was the first thing. sometimes it's like when we feel these kind of things, we don't really give so much thought about it to it. I mean, we don't really analyze it that much. We feel it and then we just live it that way. So I think it was something like that. And also, the first part is that it's...

it was stigmatized. The second is I didn't really have anyone close to talk about it too. And third, I didn't want people to feel sorry for me. then another thing is,

I got used to that I managed. then I just wanted to carry on same style. But I was different. I wasn't myself. mean, this all this overwhelming and additional feeling of being a mother is something it was completely brand new to me. But I disregarded it. I thought

Chelsea (46:57)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (47:20)
I thought that's just old me and I should manage but I wasn't managing it at all. I think I really managed for a long time to keep it in me I think I remember the days when I felt completely confused. The part is it's so pointless. It becomes very pointless because when you feel confused

you kind of you get this stress of over control loss and then you try to structure things which is like don't help, they don't help at all. Structure doesn't help if you're like structuring something else. So and then in addition to everything that you don't have energy for that because you are in this internal turmoil.

Chelsea (47:51)
Yes.

No.

Marina Tjetland (48:12)
but it becomes a spiral going down. and I think I was like gradually ending up more down and down. And it's not like I could talk about it to my partner either because we started having shifts in relationship too. it's not, we had some problems before too and then.

we didn't solve them and then we entered into this parenthood it became kind of a thing that most people think yeah getting a child will probably will make us closer but it didn't

Chelsea (48:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (48:53)
It actually made us more, made us, moved us apart from each other. Yeah.

Chelsea (48:59)
Like distant. Yeah. That spiral. I know that spiral well. And to... To hear that you experienced it for as long as you did. It... It breaks my heart in a way, but it also demonstrates...

your strength and that you did get through that and you mentioned it just a tiny bit. In the beginning you talked about how you're a very creative person and you mentioned your comic books. Did

When did the turning point happen when you started to come out of the spiral and did your art and creativity play into that at all?

Marina Tjetland (49:44)
yes, absolutely. It was like, how you call this thing in English, it's one the oldest languages in my head. The saving circle when you throw to a drowning person.

Chelsea (49:46)
Yeah.

You

It was like a life vest. It was like a life vest. Yep.

Marina Tjetland (50:03)
Yes, yes, it was, was, I experienced it that way. Eventually after this first year of motherhood, I experienced that the fog and confusing and going down the spiral, but ended up in a burnout, actually, because, it was way too much for me to take, even though I tried to take everything, but then,

Chelsea (50:21)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (50:30)
our relationship was getting worse and worse and then we decided to separate and of course it was very hard decision to take and I that not staying together and was a lot of other things that made me to

make this decision because of the arguments about upbringing, how to do things when it comes to me and we had clear different opinions on that part and that just made me think like I'm not gonna...

Chelsea (51:03)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (51:09)
sit and argue with someone and put my daughter through this very traumatic to see your parents arguing. if it's something that you cannot solve and there's no way to get through it and to sort of understand each other, there's no way to find a common ground and I couldn't see that common ground. So then I feel like I'm not doing this.

And also, it's interesting that Mia started going to kindergarten and that separation was too much for me too.

Chelsea (51:50)
wow.

Marina Tjetland (51:52)
I was like, because she was the only thing I had. I had no one. I had no mother to talk to. I had no siblings. My friends, I don't have so many friends, but well, my friends say I do, but it's very easy when your friends get busy with their own life.

Chelsea (51:56)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (52:19)
and you don't want to be burdened and then you just try to manage all these things and of course now I hear you should have told me for my friend but

Chelsea (52:28)
Mmm, that's not helpful. That's not helpful to hear.

Marina Tjetland (52:33)
No, and I don't want to sort of like blame anyone in that sense. I did not for help at all. I didn't reach out. I didn't indicate it. I just kept it in me. of course, lack of awareness is the main thing, the major thing, because I thought there was something wrong with me. And I tried to hide it.

Chelsea (52:43)
Mm

Marina Tjetland (53:00)
And also the separation with my daughter hit me hard in a way that because I didn't have anyone, any other joy. And it was of course my choice to give her to kindergarten, but still emotionally it hit me very hard. And I think it was like a tipping point to my...

Chelsea (53:15)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (53:26)
a burnout situation and luckily I went to my doctor for like cash or routine check or something. I don't remember exactly. And he looked at me, he said, you don't look good. How are you doing? And then I started to, I burst in tears and I said to him what I was going through he said, do you have anyone to talk to?

the first thing I said, I don't really want to talk to about this. And he said, yeah, you need to talk to you cannot keep this in you. This is not healthy to stay alone with all this struggles and thoughts. And he referred me to emergency psychological help we have here like centers, local centers.

Chelsea (53:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm

Marina Tjetland (54:21)
And the interesting part is when I called them, they said, well, we're going to put you in the queue. We don't have available people right now, but you are in the queue. We will let you know when you get help. But in the meantime, we need to ask you a few questions.

questions like have you ever had psychological issues before? do you have any mental disease like bipolar or ADHD or some kind of similar disease or syndrome? And I said no. And do you have any suicidal thoughts? said no. Have you ever tried to commit suicide? And I said yes. And then it was when?

Chelsea (55:02)
Mm

Marina Tjetland (55:14)
when was it? And I said, well, was a long time ago when I was 21. And that changed. And okay. And her voice changed. And she said, yeah, can you come next week?

So that it's, I don't know. It's like either I can look at it from both sides. It's kind of sad too because normal people don't get access to the health. then, but then of course they could see that's acute like emergency situation that we cannot have this happen again. If she did it and she has in her history then yeah, then it's higher risk.

Chelsea (55:47)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Marina Tjetland (56:01)
So then I got a nurse, a psychological nurse, and she was...

She was... I remember. I remember how I was going to her and I forced myself. Because it's also like when you get through the system here in Norway, you cannot turn it down. because hard to get it. It's possible to get it, but once you get it...

Chelsea (56:24)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (56:28)
you might as well use it, might as well benefit from it, because, and at least that was my mindset, that there's, what worse can happen if I need to do this, this is good. And then I remember going to her and I sweated like crazy, because it was just so hard to go there and talk to a stranger about my

Chelsea (56:30)
Right.

Mm

Marina Tjetland (56:58)
most inner things and the thoughts so weird. But she was very good and she was very kind and she was using this cognitive therapy thing like she had questions and tools. I think that was good. And so sitting with the psychologist and asking like, how are you feeling now? Good.

Chelsea (57:12)
cognitive behavioral therapy. Yep.

Hahaha!

Marina Tjetland (57:27)
I don't know. I'm not going to complain. Yeah, no, it's a, and then I remember she asked you have anything you love doing? I said, yes, I love painting, drawing and you should do that. said, and I said, well, I'm not sure I can do it because the

Chelsea (57:31)
I don't know, fine. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (57:55)
takes a lot of space and I have a baby crawling around and I don't have energy to tidy everything every time. I like, I don't know, I just so lazy. And then she kept asking like, well, what else you have? You must have something else you love doing. And I said, well, I love writing too. And then she started asking me

Chelsea (58:04)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (58:20)
about what I've written and what it's like. have any plans? You must have some ideas what you want to write about since you love it so much. So, and I said, yeah, I do. And then she started asking about that. And it was very therapeutic actually. It very good because I came home and I started writing and actually, that was amazing because

I went into this flow I managed to write like 10 chapters and not in one day, but it took me like several months to write it. But I entered this flow, gave me this space to this distraction to sort of rest.

and to gain different perspectives in a way. And it was like 10 chapters of a sci -fi novel. And it was fun! It was really fun!

Chelsea (59:07)
Mm -hmm.

Cool? Yeah! Yeah!

Marina Tjetland (59:21)
And I went into this, in the beginning it was a fantasy novel, but then it became sci -fi because I entered space, so then I started reading about space and quantum physics and all these forces and black holes and everything. It's just so fascinating. was extremely, I don't know, different times for me in a way. And I think I really needed that.

sort of take a break, take a step back from this struggling reality and just to be somewhere else. So, yeah, and in the meantime,

Chelsea (59:59)
Yeah. You kind of got to, you got to like check out a little bit.

Marina Tjetland (1:00:04)
Yes, and also I managed because she said like, can't really function if you're constantly under stress. And if you're like, you can't sleep either. that's kind of like, it's a spiral again. So then you're gonna end up in burnout again. that's, so

She talked to me, we had like twice a month sessions and she tried to understand what's really bothering me and then I remember after like seven or eight months of meeting her she said, yep, you have childhood trauma and I'm not a specialist in this and I'm referring you

Chelsea (1:00:55)
A psychiatrist?

Marina Tjetland (1:00:57)
Psychiatrist, yes. And who is into analyzing people sort of like? Yeah, exactly. So then, and I got him quite fast and I went to him for three years after that. And it was a big help. mean, he was really good. In the beginning it was hard for me to connect, but then at some point,

Chelsea (1:00:58)
Yes, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Or a psychoanalyst. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Marina Tjetland (1:01:26)
I got this connection with him. remember he was saying that, yeah, I remember you said this before, what do you think about it? And I felt like, wow, he remembers. I could see that he cares wasn't so intrusive. He was a very typical psychologist who would

Chelsea (1:01:36)
He was listening to me. Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:01:51)
sit there and look at you and say, what do you think about it? How do you feel about it? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that was like, very typical. And also like, I could totally experience when people say that you don't get this connection, you have to like look through them, like try different psychologists, and then you get this connection. And I feel that yes, that's

Chelsea (1:01:55)
Mmm. And how does this make you feel? Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (1:02:20)
That's absolutely true. But although it was my first psychologist, what do I know? Yes. Yeah.

Chelsea (1:02:27)
You didn't have anything to compare it to.

going from a place of keeping everything to yourself, and feeling this sense of shame to doing this big transition into trusting someone else with

what you're feeling, telling them what you're feeling, what you're thinking. That's a that's huge. But you had your writing, and you had your art along the way. And then and then you started writing about motherhood. Tell me tell me about that a little bit.

Marina Tjetland (1:03:08)
Yeah, you're right. When you said it, it sounded very... It's like, yeah, not typical. You wouldn't expect that from someone who didn't want to talk about it at all. And suddenly she's just hearing about it so often. It's like two different people. Yeah, no, that was...

That was a journey for sure because the part that I pushed myself to talk to psychologists and also another thing that every time I came to my psychologist and I said to him, I read about this, this is this and this is that. And he was like, of course, let's talk about this. What do you think about this? But my point is that I am very curious.

one of my personality traits, I'm very curious and if it doesn't make sense, I really want to understand what exactly it's like with spirituality. I feel like I talk to a person who is into spirituality and I kept asking her questions. Why is this that way? What's this behind? How does look? This spirit thing is just confusing. I'm just exaggerating.

Chelsea (1:04:22)
Ha ha!

Tell me more!

Marina Tjetland (1:04:33)
But that's one of my things. And I started reading more and more about this complex PTSD Complex PTSD comes from actually childhood trauma most of the time. So, and also this.

the relationship between mother and daughter because I was entering the same relationship I had with my mother because now I'm a single mother and one of my anxieties was about because I was terrified of repeating my mother and that's why I wanted to understand my patterns. I wanted to understand why I felt that way, why this depression last.

so long all these things I read along the way made me aware of so many of my own patterns and feelings and reactions and triggers and flashbacks and everything. I just felt like I have to share it with other women because I should have known about all these things when I was a mother first year.

instead of thinking that there's something wrong with me. If I would have known about these things, that women lose filter, emotional filter when they become mothers, then I would have been kinder to myself and asked for help instead of feeling ashamed and embarrassed. So that's the main motivation behind me sharing about my story.

telling women that they are not alone. And it's quite painful to see that so many women go through the same emotions and they still feel alone. it's something that I really want to change. And I thought like, okay, it was hard enough for me to go to psychologist and talk about my crap.

Chelsea (1:06:23)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:06:34)
And then I felt like, okay, I really want to share about this. I really want to share about this with other women, but I want to do it in a different way. then I remember I talked to my friend about it and she said that, do you know that comic artist? She wrote a book about her childbirth. And then I looked through it and I got so fascinated and she said that, why don't you try that?

and you're very good at drawing, you draw so fast and that time I actually started drawing digital drawings. it's, I remember I shared my first comic on my Facebook and Instagram and that was about verbal ventilation, importance of the verbal ventilation. then I felt like I wrote also,

Chelsea (1:07:13)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (1:07:30)
a big how I felt about it and how I felt ashamed and that there was something wrong with me and but there wasn't so and I really want to motivate other people to actually share their thoughts and feelings and emotions with their closed ones or even professional ones because whatever you keep inside it gets bigger it's just

Chelsea (1:07:57)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (1:07:58)
it just gets bigger and bigger And I felt so anxious when I shared that comic on social media telling about myself. And I felt like, my God, what am I doing? I just need to delete that. This is too much. This is too personal. And then I got the first comment and then I got...

Chelsea (1:08:12)
No.

Marina Tjetland (1:08:18)
so many comments and I got so much support and people were so understanding and then someone was saying that they could relate to it and I thought like there you go this is something I really need to try and then I kept sharing comics about grief, about

feeling confused and like duality of the emotions like you can feel both bad and good emotions at the same time and doesn't mean that you have to the bad ones or hate them and also about perfectionism and all this old traumas and along the way I got so much feedback from people and I think someone

Chelsea (1:08:49)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:09:03)
asked me why don't you make a book and that hit me like okay yeah I think that that's something I should really think about at least and then when I started doing it it was last year in May I rolled up my sleeves and started sketching started sketching my first comic book about my post -partum depression

And I thought like, I will just dedicate two, three pages to my childbirth. It should be fine, it should be enough. But then it was more and more and it wasn't, still wasn't enough said and shared. And I thought like, my God, I tried to squeeze such a huge life event into just a few pages. That's not possible at all. And then I thought, okay, I have to make a separate book about childbirth.

Chelsea (1:09:47)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:09:58)
And I became 56 pages and I worked on that for half a year I think and I was very productive and like when people said to me that you need to have this a map or like a business plan what you're doing and I felt like why it's just one book? Yes, yeah I'm just gonna finish this book and...

Chelsea (1:10:17)
Yeah. Yeah, like, leave me alone.

Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:10:26)
What's difficult about it? So no, it's funny with me, but it got of course more complex, more and more complex when it comes to me applying to publishers and being rejected because it's my first book and they don't want to take risks. then I decided to self -publish it and I...

Chelsea (1:10:50)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (1:10:54)
got some pre -orders for my book which helped me to cover some costs. I didn't really know that it's going to be that way. I didn't plan for any of this. while I was doing all this, I got to meet people and then some of my friends, they started saying, yeah, you have to launch your book now. You you published, you

completed your book, you see, published it now, now you have to launch it. I have to launch it? No, you have to, you can't just leave it halfway, I mean, it's like, and you will manage, I know you'll manage, okay, and then I started looking into that and I launched it in three cities here in Norway.

Chelsea (1:11:27)
What do you mean?

Marina Tjetland (1:11:45)
every time I was so nervous because I had to tell my story to bunch of people and of course most of them I knew but still very hard but it was also at the same time liberating too because I tell my story and I can see I can see women some of them crying and some of them just sitting there and like staring

Chelsea (1:11:50)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:12:12)
completely and it was something was happening to them and and then some women who never met me before one of them came to me and she said I'm so happy to hear your story and and now I feel like it wasn't my fault it's not me and and and of course my story is completely different I had this

and she was so eager to tell her story and it just felt so magical to me and felt like we got in contact after that and met several times afterwards and she's not the only one. I met so many other women and that was the beauty of self -publishing in a way and launching my book and it just got bigger and bigger in a way that

A few months ago I was asked to run a workshop on drawing comics to express your feelings.

Chelsea (1:13:17)
Mmm, that's so cool!

Marina Tjetland (1:13:18)
And it was amazing experience, you because I had, this was my first time and I'm not a teacher, I've never done it before. And the first thing when I heard people saying, I can't draw, I'm horrible at drawing. And I said, not music, it's not math. You don't need to have any preparation.

Chelsea (1:13:22)
Yeah.

Marina Tjetland (1:13:44)
don't need to have any theory around drawing. all tried paper and pencil. You know how to use it. You absolutely, no doubt, all of you have drawn something in your life. It can be stick figure, or you can draw anything you want. mean, it doesn't have to be really beautiful version of you.

And then it actually helps because one woman, she drew herself as a lemon. Another one, she drew herself as a fly. Another one drew herself as a flower. And because I said, you don't need to draw yourself as yourself. can draw yourself as anything. And actually, it's really created such deep conversations between women.

Chelsea (1:14:21)
Okay.

Marina Tjetland (1:14:36)
they started sharing their own experiences, how they felt about their day and how they felt about certain experience and how they felt some days they felt ugly and now they don't. So it was very uplifting and it was really some kind of exploration. It is emotional exploration. So that was...

and that went very successful. So, I mean, my point is that it's just unraveled after that it became so complex. And now I'm looking into, I'm working on my second book, by the way, which is about my first year of postpartum depression. And I also been regularly published on a local newspaper. So I have my books in both Norwegian and English.

Chelsea (1:15:13)
Awesome.

Marina Tjetland (1:15:27)
I sent my book to New Mexico and was ordered, yes, and then it was ordered by someone from Indonesia and Sweden and also I sent books to Kazakhstan and I think, I think too, so it's,

Chelsea (1:15:33)
wow.

It's making the rounds.

Marina Tjetland (1:15:51)
I'm trying to and in a way it helps. Although it's my book, the main motivation for me is to show women that they're not alone. also, childbirth is, this book is about childbirth, but that's where starts, the whole transformation thing into motherhood and also that

despite that this experience is quite common. So many women went through that, but it's still very unique to every woman. it's still, even though it can be similar from one to another, but it is unique to every woman how she experienced it. And I think it's very vital for us to just be able to share about it, and good or bad.

Chelsea (1:16:32)
Mm -hmm.

Marina Tjetland (1:16:48)
I mean, I think it's extremely important. And I could see from women how they started sharing about their experiences. I can see there like how it changes their faces. It's like you can feel it. So it's absolutely beautiful in that sense. And that's why I really want to carry on working on my second book. now I'm also

working on arranging talks. I go to meet doulas. I go to meet doulas. don't know. never, I didn't know what doula is about at all.

Chelsea (1:17:22)
Amazing. You got to what?

Yeah, we love doulas here on Quiet Connection. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I think, I think what the common thread through your whole journey, which you've done such a beautiful job of, of sharing is that,

Marina Tjetland (1:17:36)
You

Chelsea (1:17:54)
is that it's okay. It's okay to tell your story. It doesn't matter if it's beautiful or if it's messy or if it's complicated. It's okay to tell your story and and your story deserves to be heard and my story deserves to be heard and everyone's story deserves to be heard. And then you're exactly right. The way that, the way that it changes a person just to have someone listen, all you have to do is just listen.

You don't have to have the exact same experience as someone to be able to validate and connect with them.

Marina Tjetland (1:18:24)
Yeah, that's right.

Chelsea (1:18:31)
is why I find it so powerful and amazing the work you're doing the book with your books and with your comics and through your social media, which I'm going to I'm going to link in the show notes as well because listeners definitely check out Marina's Instagram and all of the work that you're doing. But to bring us to bring us full circle, I

I want to thank you again so, so, much for sharing. like I I love that the universe just kind of connects me with people that make me feel empowered, like I feel empowered from our conversation. So thank you for that.

My end, my, my, always think of a wrap up question. I don't choose one in the beginning because I want to get to know you before I choose the question. But I think, I think my question for you will be if you can take one message from your journey, this is so hard. It's so hard to encapsulate years and years worth of experience. But if you can take one message from your story that you hope other

parents hear and really internalize, what would you want that message to be?

Marina Tjetland (1:19:51)
Okay, well, first thing, of course, comes to my mind is you're not alone, but I feel like I want to say more than that. I think I would say something in line to...

You're doing great. You're a great mother. And you will manage.

Chelsea (1:20:11)
That is, I can guarantee you that is exactly what so many mothers need to hear right now. So thank you for offering that to them. And I hope you offer it to yourself as well. thank you for taking the time to meet with me. And I'm so excited for my listeners to get to experience you and your work.

Marina Tjetland (1:20:28)
Thank you very much.

Thank you. I'm really happy to share my story here. you're right. I should not have been nervous. This went great. Yeah.

Chelsea (1:20:44)
Hey, I get nervous too. I get nervous every time. It's

Chelsea (1:20:50)
Marina, thank you so much for sharing your story with me. Your strength and resiliency shine through as you share your story and the work that you're doing to help other mothers and birthing people feel seen and validated is so needed. I'm excited to follow your journey and listeners, please be sure to check out the show notes for information about where to find Marina and her work. You can keep up with us on Quiet Connection by following us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and threads.

at Quiet Connection Podcast. You can help our community grow by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and consider sharing our episodes on social media. To share your personal journey, can contact us through our website at quietconnectionpodcast .com or by email at quietconnectionppmh at gmail .com. Join us next time when another story is told and you realize you are not alone.

I see you.