Tiff C: When Rock Bottom is Fertile Ground

Tiff Carson never imagined her path to motherhood would involve Petri dishes, hormone chaos, and a closet breakdown that changed everything. 

In this episode, Tiff shares her deeply personal journey through infertility, multiple rounds of IVF, postpartum mental health challenges, and parenting neurodivergent children. From the heartbreak of failed embryo transfers to the surprise of twin boys and the overwhelming reality of raising three children with ADHD and ODD, Tiff’s story is raw, emotional, and profoundly human.

Now a podcast host herself, Tiff opens up about the moment she nearly gave up and the decision that led her to start Hard Beautiful Journey. This conversation is a reminder that healing is possible, community is essential, and we are never as alone as we feel. 

🔑 KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Infertility and IVF are not just physical processes—they carry deep emotional and psychological weight.
  
  
• Birth trauma can interrupt early bonding and complicate mental health recovery.
  
  
• The parenting journey doesn’t always match the one you imagined—and that’s okay.
  
  
• Raising neurodivergent children is beautiful and incredibly challenging.
  
  
• You can be deeply grateful for your children and still struggle with the demands of motherhood.
  
  
• Choosing to get help is not weakness—it’s a courageous act of love for yourself and your family.
  
  
• Healing comes from community, vulnerability, and the power of sharing your truth.

🔊 SOUND BITES

• “I turned over the pregnancy test, saw it was negative… and my daughter was just standing there, like a reminder that I already had a miracle.”
  
  
• “I thought IVF was going to be the hard part—but it was parenting that almost broke me.”
  
  
• “There were days I didn’t like my kids. And that’s the honest truth.”
  
  
• “I hid in my closet behind the clothes because I couldn’t take it anymore. That’s where I made the decision to choose help, to choose life.”
  
  
• “Every time I tell this story, it heals me a little more. These are my salve tears.”
  
  
• “It wasn’t ignoring the hard stuff that helped us—it was facing it, getting support, and honoring our kids for who they are.”

Connect with Tiff at Hard Beautiful Journey and follow her on Instagram @hardbeautifuljourney. 

This episode discusses topics that may be triggering for some individuals. Please check the show notes for more information and be mindful of your own mental health and comfort levels.

Real moms. Real talk. Zero sugarcoating.
Join Odd Moms On Call as we tackle parenting in a world on fire—one hot take, eye roll, and belly laugh at a time. 

Transcript

Chelsea Myers (00:01)
Welcome to Quiet Connection, a podcast dedicated to ending the stigma around postpartum mental health. I'm Chelsea. This week, I'm connecting with Tiff, who bravely shares her incredible journey from the world of high powered finance to the equally demanding and transformative world of motherhood. Tiff's story is one of resilience and vulnerability. She shares her struggles with fertility, the emotional ups and downs of IVF.

and the unique challenges of parenting children with ADHD and ODD. Get ready to be moved by Tiff's honesty and her powerful message of hope.

Chelsea Myers (00:41)
Hello, today I'm here with Tiff. Tiff, how are you?

Tiff Carson (00:46)
I am doing great, how are you?

Chelsea Myers (00:48)
I'm doing okay for a Friday morning. Yes. Almost the weekend, which for a stay at home parent is just another day. But we like to celebrate the little things, right? We'll celebrate that it's almost the weekend. Tiff, I'm so excited to meet with you and we've had some bumps in our scheduling, but we're here and we're going to do the thing.

Tiff Carson (00:51)
Yay, it's almost the weekend.

Yep, sure is.

Absolutely.

We're doing it.

Chelsea Myers (01:15)
We're doing

it. Well, rather than me go down my list of all the wonderful things that I've learned about you and your family, it would be amazing if you could introduce yourself and also let me know who you were before becoming a mom.

Tiff Carson (01:32)
⁓ wow. That was so long ago. Yeah. I am Tiff Carson and I'm an author, a speaker, podcast host myself, and a mental health advocate. And I am very passionate about people healing their hearts through all of the highs and lows that

Chelsea Myers (01:35)
Right?

Tiff Carson (01:56)
they go through in their lives and one of is fertility and grief. And yeah, that's what I'm passionate about. I've written a book called Dancing in the Rain, which is from the loss of my brother to a fentanyl overdose. And yeah, I'm just really passionate about talking with people who have had a hard, beautiful journey.

That's the name of my podcast and just really getting into the vulnerable parts of us and really sharing our experiences because everybody is going through it. And I just want to help people understand that they're not alone.

Chelsea Myers (02:38)
Yeah, which is exactly our mission, which is so, so beautiful that you're doing that. And that was definitely a connection point for me when I, when I got to know you. Who was, who was Tiff way back when, before you had kiddos?

Tiff Carson (02:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tiff was and still is an overachiever to the millionth degree. Wow. I am a CPA by let's say a school journey, a very long school journey. So before kids, I was deeply, deeply immersed in the education part of.

Chelsea Myers (03:12)
Ha ha ha.

Tiff Carson (03:21)
my life and really just enjoying being single and like traveling and playing sports and all of those things and going to school. That literally consumed my life.

Chelsea Myers (03:38)
Yeah, yeah. Would you say, so I always say like, I'm a lover of learning. Would you say it was that or it was more goal oriented? It was more like I need to do A to get to B.

Tiff Carson (03:51)
I clearly remember in high school wanting the corner office. Yeah, I was told by one of my friends whose father was a CA, a CPA, and they made a lot of money. They had a really nice house and they had a swimming pool and they had everything, right? So I was just like, okay, so how did they get...

Chelsea Myers (04:00)
Ooooo

Hahaha

Tiff Carson (04:19)
that. All right, so I want the corner office that he's sitting in, so I'm going to do an XYZ to get that. And little did I know that, and let me back up a little bit, in high school, grade 10, 11, and 12, I aced my accounting courses. Like aced them, and I wasn't acing other courses. So was like, what is going on here? So maybe I need to be an accountant.

obviously. then I had it in my head that that's how I was going to get the corner office was to be an accountant and do all these great things. And I went into my first course in our technical school here and from the first class, first class, first course, I knew I shouldn't be an accountant.

And guess how long I went to school to be an accountant.

Chelsea Myers (05:15)
Did you finish it? Did you do like the full, ⁓ my God. ⁓ my.

Tiff Carson (05:18)
10 years.

10 years I went to school. The thing that I'm very proud of is I went to school for 10 years, but I worked full time during the day and I took one course every semester in the evening and my company was paying for it. So I came out of school with no debt, tons of experience, but it was very, very hard on me mentally.

Chelsea Myers (05:35)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (05:48)
because I could feel it in my soul that this is not what brings me joy at all. But I was determined to get that corner office. And I do have the corner office right now. And I am proud of the work that I've done to get there. And all of the experiences that I've had since getting my CPA designation have been amazing.

Chelsea Myers (05:55)
No.

Tiff Carson (06:15)
and I'm grateful for them, but the lesson that I learned is listen to my intuition a little bit more.

Chelsea Myers (06:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

I bet you that plays into as we walk into your journey into parenting, I bet that plays a part in that journey as well. Speaking of which, when did that come about in your life? At what point during all of this? Did you because you said you were enjoying being single, you were enjoying sort of having that freedom? When did it change and shift for you to like, all right, time to settle down and

Tiff Carson (06:30)
Mm-hmm, it sure does. Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (06:49)
Maybe start a family.

Tiff Carson (06:51)
Well, like I said, I was playing a lot of sports. was playing slow pitch here in Canada, so ball. And I was on a mixed team and I started crushing on this guy that was on my team. And over time, we ended up starting to date and then we ended up getting married. And we went to Mexico to get married.

and we had 17 people with us. And one of my bridesmaids, her and her husband at the time were trying to have a baby. And I remember saying to James, like, we're gonna have a baby at the same time, so let's get busy now. And it was, she got pregnant right away and we didn't. We came home from our honeymoon.

Chelsea Myers (07:37)
you

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (07:49)
no baby, like in, you know what I mean. It hadn't started yet. No, no, there was nothing, nothing cooking in there. And I was like, what do you mean? Why didn't it work? It worked for her. Like I was so naive. like, it just blows my mind that I was that naive. And then the next month, the next month, the next month.

Chelsea Myers (07:51)
Yes, yes. You didn't steal a baby in Mexico.

Tiff Carson (08:17)
And I would call her when I got my period and I was like, I got my period again. I don't understand what's going on. And like it just kept going and going and going. And I'm like, I don't understand what's happening. And then here in Canada anyway, they don't refer you to a fertility doctor until it's been a year. And so at that one year mark, like our anniversary, like on our anniversary, I was like,

I need to know what's going on here. And so we went to the fertility doctor and we started to do all the tests and all of the stuff. turns out that my ex-husband now, he ended up, he had sperm motility and I can't remember, basically his sperms were not great. And...

Chelsea Myers (09:06)
They weren't swimming.

Tiff Carson (09:08)
They were swimming, but they had heads and no tails. Yeah, like it was interesting. And I had experienced a lot of period issues growing up. And so I ended up going in for endometriosis laparoscopy surgery, and it was pretty severe. So went through that process.

Chelsea Myers (09:30)
Mm.

Tiff Carson (09:37)
We went through the IUI process and three times trying that. And that blew me away. That blew me away that I'm on this medication prepping my body to accept these millions of sperms that they're shooting into you. And I was like, yeah, no, for sure I'm getting pregnant. How can I not get pregnant with that process?

Chelsea Myers (10:05)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (10:05)
Like

I was convinced. And each time I got my period, I was like, I don't understand. I don't understand how people get pregnant naturally. I just don't understand this anymore. Like it was so, so confusing to me at that point that they're literally shooting them into me, into that spot. And they're not, they're not.

Chelsea Myers (10:17)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (10:30)
connecting, they're not working. So yeah, was very, very difficult on my mental health for sure. And then we were pulled into that room and we were told like, we shouldn't do IUIs anymore. It's just not something that's gonna work for you. We're gonna need to probably use every tool in the toolkit.

Chelsea Myers (10:31)
Yeah.

Mm.

Tiff Carson (10:54)
in order to get you guys a baby. And that's when the IVF discussion started happening. And that's when we rolled out our bank account

Chelsea Myers (11:05)
Well, and it's important to mention that too, because especially, like you said, you're in Canada. The healthcare system in the US and in Canada are different and each have their unique challenges. But I think Americans have this vision of the Canadian health system as being just this like, you go and you get care and it's free and everything's great. it not necessarily not necessarily.

Tiff Carson (11:17)
Mm-hmm.

Not with IVF, not at all.

Chelsea Myers (11:31)
right,

right. With IVF and things similar. And like you said, like there's a waiting period to even be considered for these programs. So it's important to note that. And you did you mentioned that this was taking a toll on your mental health. Like, was there a switch made? Obviously, you were frustrated, I can feel that. Was there a switch made when the conversation came up like

Tiff Carson (11:53)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (11:57)
Alright, it's IVF time. Like, how did that hit?

Tiff Carson (12:01)
The

initial feeling, I remember it very clearly, was we are going into sci-fi land.

Chelsea Myers (12:11)
Right.

Tiff Carson (12:11)
Like

we're using Petri dishes now to have a baby. What? What? This was never ever, ever discussed in sex ed classes in high school and all of that, right? And like they just always talked about not getting pregnant.

Chelsea Myers (12:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely not.

Right.

Tiff Carson (12:37)
I'm like, I'm just trying to get pregnant here and now you want to use a Petri dish. What?

Chelsea Myers (12:42)
You're

taking my body out of the equation completely, right? yeah.

Tiff Carson (12:47)
Yes, it was so

overwhelming. But I also remember feeling so grateful that that option was there because I was in full on desperation mode. I was like, I don't care what we have to do. I am going to do whatever and we will go into debt for it. We will do whatever we need to do. But thankfully, we had

Chelsea Myers (12:57)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (13:15)
parents and in-laws that were so, so generous and loaned us the money. We paid back everything that we borrowed to do these processes. So yeah, we were like, okay, let's go, let's try this. And I remember the first round of medication, I was bat shit crazy.

Chelsea Myers (13:40)
Yeah, they don't talk about that. They don't talk about the IVF and the IUI meds and what they can do to you.

Tiff Carson (13:42)
No.

I was legit batshit crazy. was like all over the place. My moods were just a roller coaster. I was laughing one second and either raging or crying the next. It was wow.

Chelsea Myers (13:49)
Yeah.

Yeah. And and

yeah. And I was gonna ask so like, I even skipped over the question that I typically ask. But like, obviously, you had this deep drive to have a family. Is this something that you and your partner at the time had always like, this was the plan. It was settled down, have a family. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (14:24)
yeah.

yeah, there was no

debate on if we were going to have a family or not and wanting them. It was in the plan. And I always wanted to be a mom and he always wanted to be a dad. so yeah, that's where I think the desperation came from is that this is something that we desperately want.

Chelsea Myers (14:46)
Mm-hmm.

So when you're going through these changes, because your hormones are all over the place and your body's taking a toll, what kind of a toll did that take on your relationship, not just with your partner, but like people in your life, like friends and family watching you go through this?

Tiff Carson (14:56)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that's the interesting part is there was lots of people we didn't tell that we were doing this. Our family obviously knew because they were helping us. So they were very supportive. I felt really bad for my ex-husband because I wasn't nice to him, but I would also just throw it back at him like you're not the one sticking things into your body.

Chelsea Myers (15:15)
okay.

Tiff Carson (15:36)
you're not the one with the hormones going on in your body, right? You get to do the enjoyable part. And I would just throw that at him constantly. so, yeah, it was just a mind F, right? Like constantly. My employer at the time, thank goodness he knew what was going on and he was very supportive. And like I would just go into his office and just say,

Chelsea Myers (15:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (16:03)
whatever I do or say today, please, I'm sorry. Right away, just right off the top, I'm really sorry. And so he would just laugh and stuff, right? So yeah, it was intense. It was really intense. And so we started that process and my body did not react the way that it should have for the age that I was. I was in my early 30s.

Chelsea Myers (16:07)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (16:32)
I was 32, 31 or 32. can't even remember anymore. And when they pull you into those rooms and they do all those tests and they check for follicles and all of that good stuff, I had nothing.

Chelsea Myers (16:51)
Whoa. Like what a shock, right?

Tiff Carson (16:55)
after taking crazy amounts of meds, I had nothing. And so they were like, what the heck? And so then they upped me. I was on the highest dose possible just to get follicles, right? And so higher dose means higher crazy. And I was just like, my Lord, I don't even know what's going on right now. Like this is bananas. And so anyway, we,

Chelsea Myers (17:07)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (17:21)
We did the whole process. We got to the and there was very little follicles still. And they pull you into the room and let me back up a second. Things were not progressing well when they were doing the ultrasounds. And so, and I would usually go to those appointments by myself just because there were so many. And, but this particular day, James,

Chelsea Myers (17:28)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (17:48)
He was like, no, I'm gonna come with you. I need to come with you on this one. And it's amazing that he came and I'll tell you why. Because they pulled us into that room and the doctor came and the two nurses came and they're like, it's not going well. And we're gonna recommend that we end the cycle and that we try again in a couple of months. And I was ready just to say, no, we're done. We're done. My body can't handle this anymore. I am done.

And James, this is where I'm going to get emotional.

He said, no, we're going on. We're going. We're not going this far and not continuing. I understand what's going on with her body and that it's hard, but we're gonna keep going.

Chelsea Myers (18:24)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (18:36)
And that's how we got our daughter.

Chelsea Myers (18:39)
Wow. Wow. I had like when you said it, I had so many thoughts. then like my initial thought was like, how did that feel for you to hear him say that? Was that empowering? Did that feel disempowering in any way? But then it was empowering. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Especially like you said, like you weren't talking to people about it.

Tiff Carson (18:55)
It was very empowering for me, yeah, that he was in my corner.

Chelsea Myers (19:07)
So, to have, obviously it wasn't you that was really feeling those negative like things like you're not going through this, but like to hear him say like don't give up on yourself. Yeah. Wow. And that's how you got your daughter.

Tiff Carson (19:18)
Yeah.

Don't give up. And

yeah. So we ended up with three embryos. And when they do, my goodness, when they do that process, the egg retrieval. And then you come out and you're pretty much in a hallway with another two or three people, right? Separated by the curtain.

Chelsea Myers (19:29)
Mm-hmm

Tiff Carson (19:47)
and they told us that they got three eggs and all three of them fertilized into an embryo. The lady beside me got 20.

Chelsea Myers (19:56)
my gosh. Ugh.

Tiff Carson (19:58)
So, and I could hear

them give her this news, right? And I was just like, okay, I wanted to pull the curtain back and say, how old are you? Yeah, can I have some of those? So it was just like, what is happening? Like, why is my body not cooperating? And then so I got a lot of like negativity towards my body, towards my...

Chelsea Myers (20:01)
Right.

Can I have some?

Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (20:24)
everything, my reproductive system, everything. I was just like, why are you not cooperating with me? know? So anyway, we got the three embryos, we put in two and got our daughter and froze one. And...

Chelsea Myers (20:32)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (20:44)
Yeah, I can't even describe that phone call where they told us that we were pregnant. It was unbelievable. And yeah, I was nervous the whole pregnancy.

Chelsea Myers (20:52)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I was gonna ask were you able to enjoy any of it?

Tiff Carson (21:01)
Yes, I did. I really did enjoy a lot of the pregnancy, but there was a lot of issues with the ultrasound. I ended up having eight ultrasounds, which is very uncommon here. You usually have And I had eight because she at the 12 week or 18, I can't remember now, they found a few issues that they wanted to.

Chelsea Myers (21:16)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (21:27)
follow up on like her heart, her kidneys, her lungs, all of it. So that was nerve wracking. But then she came into the world and very healthy, all like just unbelievable, unbelievable joy when she came into the world. And we

Chelsea Myers (21:31)
Mmm.

Tiff Carson (21:53)
were convinced that we were gonna use that one embryo and have another try again. We were lucky with her, right? And I went through the process. I was doing like acupuncture and everything to prepare my body again. And I was on my way to an acupuncture appointment on the day of, I don't even remember the terms anymore, where they put it in.

Chelsea Myers (22:19)
and I had it and then I lost it too, but yes. Yes.

Tiff Carson (22:19)
And.

Yeah, where they put it in you.

And I was on my way to an acupuncture appointment that I was having right before the procedure when we got the call that it didn't make it, it didn't survive the thaw. And that was a huge blow, a huge blow. Like I don't think I got out of bed for a week because I was just like, that's it.

Chelsea Myers (22:38)
Ugh.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (22:52)
we don't have anymore. Like we're done. And so that took a bit. But I also was so grateful because we had our daughter and I was just like, whatever, thank you God that we at least have this because like I didn't think, I was at a point where I didn't think we were going to have kids. Like we were going through the adoption, filling out adoption papers and doing all of that because it took five years to get her.

Chelsea Myers (22:54)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (23:20)
and every single procedure in the clinic, every single one we've used. And so we went three years of just being really happy with our daughter, but something was like, no, I think we need, like my, have siblings and my brother.

my ex-husband has a sister and we were like, no, we need to have siblings or a sibling. We were like one sibling, like please just one at that point. But again, the money and we're like, what the heck? So my ex's parents again contributed and we started the process again.

Chelsea Myers (23:52)
At least one, please. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (24:05)
And this time my body, I don't know if my daughter cleaned out all the pipes. I don't know what happened there, but she cleaned out some pipes and things were still difficult, but not as crazy as the first one where the follicles happened more easily. All of that happened more easily to the point where our embryos were so

Chelsea Myers (24:11)
You

Tiff Carson (24:30)
so great, the quality was so great that the embryologist, when they were putting in the first two, came into the room and warned us that you are most likely, there's a good chance of having twins with this or possibly quads. I'm like, what? Because what? No, I just want one.

Chelsea Myers (24:48)
my gosh.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (24:55)
Thanks. whatever you got to do, just make one so again, we were convinced like this is good. Like the first, it worked the first time with Avery putting in two, we got one. So what's happening and you know, the dreaded two week wait.

Chelsea Myers (25:12)
Yup.

Tiff Carson (25:13)
The dreaded two-week wait. I will never forget.

Chelsea Myers (25:15)
Yeah, what do they call

it? They say, pregnant until proven otherwise, right? Yep. Yep.

Tiff Carson (25:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

I went into the washroom on the morning that I was taking the test. It was very early in the morning, like 4.30 or 5 in the morning, something crazy, but I couldn't wait. And my daughter was like three at the time. And I looked up and she was standing there.

Chelsea Myers (25:35)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (25:46)
Sorry.

Chelsea Myers (25:47)
It's okay, it's alright.

Tiff Carson (25:49)
I turned the test over and it was negative.

Chelsea Myers (25:52)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (25:53)
It's like, how are you standing here at this moment?

when I need you the most, you know? Like as a reminder that I have you. When this test is negative and I feel like I'm going to die of heartbreak, you who are standing here reminding me that it's okay.

Chelsea Myers (26:00)
Yeah, yeah.

yeah, I'm assuming like she wouldn't typically be up and there and no, she just knew she knew somehow.

Tiff Carson (26:19)
and

No.

It was so

crazy that she was standing there and she just gave me a hug and like in her little voice, like, what's wrong, mama? anyway, that took a bit to get over too because it was just like, you had this expectation that this is like their rock star embryos. They called them rock star embryos. And I was like, how did our rock stars not make it?

Chelsea Myers (26:50)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (26:53)
so anyway, we still had some embryos left over and I can't remember the numbers anymore. And then you start doing the research on the success rate for frozen embryos versus not and because we got Avery through fresh, right? So I was like, ⁓ no, now like.

Chelsea Myers (27:11)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (27:14)
Good Lord, like the success rate is not great for Frozen and.

But we're gonna try, we're gonna try. And so you know, you wait the couple months to let your body heal and do all its things. then we went in and we had another two frozen ones put in and the dreaded two week wait. I remember it was my daughter, it was Avery's birthday. And...

I started bleeding profusely, like bleeding, bleeding. And I was like, what is going on? So my mom and dad were in town, my sister and her family for Avery's birthday. James's parents were back home in their town, but I like, gotta go to the hospital or something.

Chelsea Myers (27:48)
⁓ no.

Tiff Carson (28:11)
We, because we're in the two week wait, I called the fertility clinic and they were like, come here, like come right away and we'll do an ultrasound. And the whole drive there, I was crying, but I also was like, I still feel like I feel nauseous. I feel really sick. So we got there and got into the ultrasound. James is sitting there with me and he puts the wand on my

Chelsea Myers (28:28)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (28:38)
belly and he's like, do you see that? I was like, I think I see that. And James is like, his eyes were like massive. And the doctor, he goes, yeah, that would be a twin pregnancy. I'm like, ⁓ my lord. What? Two frozen and both of them took. I'm like, ⁓ my lord.

Chelsea Myers (28:53)
my gosh.

Yeah, did they figure out why you were bleeding or it was just implant? Okay, wow. They were just like, we're here and we're staying.

Tiff Carson (29:06)
So.

Implant.

We

are here and we're going to let you know.

Chelsea Myers (29:18)
Yeah. my gosh. So what was that decision? What was that news like to hear? You've got two.

Tiff Carson (29:21)
Yeah, no.

my gosh,

it was, we just laughed. we, like it was like we were on drugs or something. Cause we were just like laughing and like giggling and like the whole way home, we're like looking at each other like, this is a ride. Holy smokes. Like what is going on? And, but I remember we phoned James's parents and he put them on speakerphone.

And I honest to God thought my mother-in-law was gonna have a heart attack right on the phone. ⁓ like the screaming coming out of her and they don't have any twins in any of their family, we do on my side. So like the idea of twins was just like so mind boggling to her. It was just like, what? I don't understand.

Chelsea Myers (29:58)
god.

Tiff Carson (30:19)
I'm like, well, there's going to be two. so let's do that. So then we got home and because everybody was there for my daughter's birthday. Like this was in the morning of my daughter's birthday party. And we got there and we walked in and they were like nervous, right? Because they didn't know what we were going to tell them. We told them they. So, yeah, it was just chaos and.

Chelsea Myers (30:21)
Yeah. Let's do math. Yeah.

Holy.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (30:46)
crazy hugging and crying and so that pregnancy was fairly normal I'd say until the last month and I literally just could not move. I couldn't move whatsoever. I was having really bad heart like a lot of issues with everything.

Chelsea Myers (30:58)
Mmm.

Tiff Carson (31:08)
they ended up being almost seven pounds each.

Chelsea Myers (31:13)
That is insane for twins.

Tiff Carson (31:15)
Yeah.

So I went to 38 weeks and I had to be induced and delivered them vaginally. So with my daughter, I ended up getting really bad mastitis right after I had her. Then I also had to have a DNC because my placenta didn't come out properly.

Chelsea Myers (31:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yes,

yep.

Tiff Carson (31:41)
So I didn't have, I was in the hospital for five days after I had her because I had to be on IV. And so I didn't have that time with her to connect with her. that was hard. Then when I had the boys, so anyway, yeah, I had two boys, which is also not common with frozen embryos to get two of the same.

Chelsea Myers (31:54)
Yeah.

You

Tiff Carson (32:07)
So I was like, we are interesting. But with them, When I had them, I actually bled out on the table to the point where they were going to give me a blood transfusion, but they decided not to.

Chelsea Myers (32:17)
no. ⁓ my gosh.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (32:30)
But all of those struggles, all of that ended up being that I got nerve damage in my back. So again, right after I had them, I was in the hospital. like there was just a lot of in the early days of not being able to connect with my children, a lot of birth trauma, I guess, right? So that was interesting, but.

Chelsea Myers (32:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (32:56)
Overall, unbelievable journey of in the fertility world. I never ever thought that I was going to be a part of. Never. It was not in the bingo card growing up.

Chelsea Myers (33:07)
As they say, yeah, yeah.

it's so again, with a lot of the a lot of the families that I talked to in the infertility world in the IVF world and that whole journey, like there is this huge confusion. Like this is not talked about in sex ed. This is not what our parents talked to us about. We were always told like, don't have sex, you're going to get pregnant.

Tiff Carson (33:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (33:34)
don't do this, you're

going to get pregnant. so along with that comes like so many things that you said, like you feel betrayed by your body. You're getting this narrative fed to you that like, this is natural. Your body's designed to do this. When for so many people, that's not the case. That's not the case. So it comes with so much. like what struck me is that, like you said, like you weren't really confiding in a lot of people.

Tiff Carson (33:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (34:04)
Did you have an IVF community at all, like of other moms that had gone through this?

Tiff Carson (34:09)
to be honest, the only boards or, cause Facebook and all of that was just kind of starting up at that point. the only thing that I really kind of gravitated towards is hearing about other people's two week wait and like, what are you experiencing? What are you, what, what is that little feeling I had in my

Chelsea Myers (34:17)
Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (34:34)
in my tummy. Does that mean I'm pregnant? I was literally holding on to whatever I could read about other people that they were going through. Because Google was... It was all still sort of new.

Chelsea Myers (34:42)
Yeah.

It was new.

So we talk a lot on Quiet Connection about community. And for whatever reason, sounds like, I mean, you had your parents and your in-laws and you had your partner, but like you guys were navigating this sort of in a ship on your own. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (35:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yep, absolutely.

Chelsea Myers (35:12)
I just appreciate your vulnerability in this because it's not, it's starting to be talked about a little bit more.

And there are a lot of aspects to infertility and IVF and IUI and all of that that are becoming very politicized and we need to realize that there are human beings behind this process. And like you said too, like, so you experienced all of this trauma going, just trying to have children, just trying to conceive.

Tiff Carson (35:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (35:46)
And then you add the layer on top of that of birth trauma, both times, and not having the ability to have that bonding time that deserve to have with your children. So when you're beyond that point, then I still hear you say, but they were healthy and they were beautiful and they were, I was so happy to have them.

Tiff Carson (35:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (36:09)
It seems like I don't want to minimize the journey at all. But I do also want to like continue us down that path. Like, so you have your kids, you have your daughter, you have your sons stepping into motherhood, coming from where you were and what you went through. How did that shift your idea of what a mother was or who you were?

Tiff Carson (36:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (36:35)
as a mother.

Tiff Carson (36:37)
Really good question. remember having our daughter in that first three years, I was very surprised by how much she needed me. She was very needy, I guess you would say. Like I literally couldn't go have a shower without her.

Chelsea Myers (36:54)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (37:03)
crying hysterically. Like there was no detachment from me. Like she was just attached to me. And I found that to be quite surprising because of like I was very happy like just doing my thing. And now all of a sudden there's this person with me all the time, right? All the time. And I just remember feeling like

Chelsea Myers (37:10)
Yeah.

All the time, yeah.

Tiff Carson (37:30)
I've lost me. Like I have lost me as a person. Like I'm not a person anymore, I'm a mom. And I really struggled with that because I was like, I wanted this child for so long and it took so long to get her. And yet now I feel like I just want some alone time. Like why can't you just go while I go to the bathroom?

Chelsea Myers (37:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (37:58)
Go find your dad. Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (37:59)
Give me five minutes! Yeah.

Tiff Carson (38:03)
And so that was really, really hard to like reconcile in my brain. Like you should be grateful. You should be grateful, Tiffany. You wanted this child for so long. And now, like now you're being, you know, like I was just like, what is happening? And then, yeah.

Chelsea Myers (38:11)
Mmm.

Do think that was your inner voice or was that

coming from somewhere else? Yeah, yeah.

Tiff Carson (38:27)
No, it was me. Yeah, it was all me.

Like I was trying to get a little piece of me back and I felt like I couldn't.

Chelsea Myers (38:37)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (38:39)
when the boys came, was also a mind F because the first year, I honest to God thought we were going to die. I thought we were going to die of exhaustion. Um, just, just to keep these little babies alive. Like, was like, I don't know how we're going to get through this. Like it's so exhausting. And

Chelsea Myers (38:48)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (39:05)
Thank goodness we had some help. At one point though, we ended up hiring a night nurse for one day a week. Wednesdays at 6 p.m. she would show up and she'd stay till 6 a.m. and that was a lifeline for us. And I highly recommend it to anybody who has even one baby if they can afford it, but especially if there's multiples involved.

Chelsea Myers (39:13)
wow.

Tiff Carson (39:34)
you need to have a night nurse if you can afford it. Because on that Wednesday at 6 p.m., as soon as we opened the door and she walked in, we literally hightailed it to separate corners of our home, like so that we each had a really good sleep. And we didn't wake up until 6 a.m. And we had no worries, like

Chelsea Myers (39:52)
Yeah.

Wow.

Tiff Carson (39:59)
We fully trusted her. She was amazing. There was one time right after she started, maybe a couple of weeks after she started, where we had a horrible, horrible flooding here in our area. She called and she's like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get there because the bridges are not doing well. It was a really bad flood. I called James at work and

told him and you could actually hear him like start to tear up. And he was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Chelsea Myers (40:32)
no.

Yeah.

man.

Tiff Carson (40:55)
Again, the struggle in your mental health of like, you wanted this, you wanted this, you wanted this, so bad. You put your body through all of this and now it's like, my Lord, you know? So it was really hard to...

Chelsea Myers (41:05)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (41:15)
reconcile, I guess, is the word I would use.

Chelsea Myers (41:18)
Yeah, that's exactly the word that I was gonna suggest. And there's a big push in the mental health field right now of like getting people to understand that you can feel more than one thing at once. And I think that's especially important for mothers because you're absolutely right. Like you can want this more than you want anything in the world.

Tiff Carson (41:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (41:46)
and you can fight and you can go through everything and you can love your children to the depths of the universe and still really, really hate some parts of it or really, really need a break. And that's okay. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (42:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's okay.

And it doesn't make you a bad parent or a bad person.

Chelsea Myers (42:10)
No, I'm sure

when you're in it, it's really hard. It's really hard to make that distinction. But like, we're saying it right now. We're saying to you, the listener, if you feel these things, it does not make you a bad parent. It makes you a human capable of feeling more than one thing at one time.

Tiff Carson (42:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It really does.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (42:35)
I think it's incredible that you were able to access that care so that you knew at least one night a week that you could get sleep. Sleep is so important for your mental health.

Tiff Carson (42:44)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (42:46)
Navigating through this. Again, I keep asking the question but like, were you seeking out any sort of community or did you feel like you sort of had to just do this like this is what I wanted. So I've got to do this. I got to do this on my own.

Tiff Carson (43:01)
I, for a long time, I felt like I had to do it on my own and something just kept nagging at me that I need to be one of the ones that creates that community. I need to be one of the people that has a resource, that creates a resource for people and not searching out other people's.

Chelsea Myers (43:16)
Mm.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (43:29)
And part of that was all three of our kids were diagnosed with ADHD and ODD. Oppositional Defiance Disorder for those who don't know ODD.

Chelsea Myers (43:37)
Mm-hmm.

I'm very familiar, but yes, thank you for clarifying.

Tiff Carson (43:44)
Mm-hmm.

And so infertility journey, wanting these kids so, so badly, going through some mental health struggles, and then at about the four or five year mark for our daughter, and again then for our both boys.

I, we didn't understand what was going on. I started documenting everything, everything, the mounds of paperwork from childcare providers, everywhere. My own stuff. It, yeah, when they diagnosed them all, I was confused. I was angry. I was very angry.

that we had to go through this unbelievable journey to get them and now the parenting of them is the hardest thing that we have ever done.

Chelsea Myers (44:42)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (44:43)
The hardest thing. I'm gonna cry again. It was so crazy in our home for many years.

so crazy. There was one point

where it was so bad that...

I went into my closet and I hid behind the clothes in my closet, just trying to get away from them so that they wouldn't find me.

Chelsea Myers (45:10)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (45:12)
because I was done. My brain, it felt like my brain snapped. Like it was like, I can't do this anymore. I cannot be your parent anymore. I can't be me anymore. And I sat behind those clothes for quite a long time. And I had some really hard, really hard discussions with God. Really hard.

Chelsea Myers (45:37)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (45:39)
and I was angry at him, I was mad at him, I just kept saying, why? Like, what did we do? Why do we have to go through this? Took so long to get them, and now I can't even enjoy parenting them. Like, not at all. I don't like them. There's some days where I hate them. Like, hating my own kids because of...

Chelsea Myers (45:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Tiff Carson (46:09)
extreme it was. And I have a million stories about how extreme it was. A million.

Chelsea Myers (46:13)
I'm sure you do. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (46:17)
And I saw in my mind's eye, I saw a fork in the road and it was either go this way or go this way. You have to make a choice right now. And the choices were either check out completely, meaning from life and just end it all. The pain, the mental health struggles, just end it.

Chelsea Myers (46:34)
Yep. Yep.

Tiff Carson (46:44)
or get help.

And it took a few hours for me to, and my husband was home at the time. I didn't leave my children completely alone, but I stayed in my room for many hours. And I came out of there and I phoned my mom and I said, I need you to come. I need you to be here. Cause I need to go see somebody. And it was in those sessions with,

Chelsea Myers (46:55)
you

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (47:14)
my therapist, she said the words, you know you're supposed to do something with this pain, right? You know you're meant to do something with all of this. And I thought she was crazy. I thought, yeah, no, I'm trying just to survive right now and you want me to do something with this? You're the crazy one, lady. I was like, you, no.

Chelsea Myers (47:27)
Well, yeah, you're like, this, no, this isn't fair. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (47:43)
what am I supposed to do with this? I'm just trying to breathe some days. And I was driving home from work one day and I was listening to a podcast. I'm like,

I don't know why I just had that thought. And it was start your own podcast. I'm like, no, no. I'm like a hardcore, was a hardcore introvert. Like you couldn't get a word out of me unless I had to actually speak, right? And the couple nights later, I woke up at 3 a.m. I grabbed my phone and I ordered a microphone from Amazon.

Chelsea Myers (48:14)
Yeah.

Tiff Carson (48:25)
And it arrived and I laughed and I said, okay, I'm just going to return you. Cause that's ridiculous. And I put it into this closet that I had and I was like, yeah, I'll return you. Don't worry about it. And about two months later, I started our podcast, Hard Beautiful Journey. And it was before I started it, I talked.

to my ex-husband and I said, how would you feel about me sharing our story? I feel like I'm supposed to share our journey through infertility, through our parenting struggles, our marriage struggles because of all of this. I feel like I'm supposed to. And I wrote out the scripts for like the first four episodes and then I had a plan for him to come on on the fifth episode.

and share his side of it from his perspective. And so I did. I read the scripts to him and he's ADHD hardcore. And so he cannot sit still. He's always on the move. And for the entire time I read those four episodes to him, he didn't move an inch.

Chelsea Myers (49:23)
Mm-hmm.

You

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (49:48)
And he sat there and he was just like, that's what we went through. And he said, you need to share this. And I know it's going to make a difference. And so I started Hard Beautiful Journey. And then he came on on the fifth and shared his side. And I'm now on episode 107.

Chelsea Myers (49:56)
Yeah.

Which is amazing! Most podcasts quit before 10. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (50:17)
Yeah.

Yep. And it was just,

okay, I'm not the only one. We're not the only ones with a hard, beautiful journey. Everybody does. And I know my story is helping somebody else. So somebody else's story has to help somebody else. So that's what I need to do is keep doing this. it's brought me so much joy.

just meeting so many people like you that I just, I wanna help people feel like they are not the only ones going through something. Cause that sometimes is the thing that really impacts people the most is they think I am the only one going through this particular thing. And.

Chelsea Myers (51:09)
Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (51:11)
There is somebody, not your exact situation, but there's always somebody going through something very similar.

Chelsea Myers (51:18)
Yeah. And that feeling of isolation is the thief of hope. And like you said, that's why it's so important. Our stories aren't always going to be exactly the same, but there is going to be a part of your story or several parts of your story that someone's going to be like, my God, like that's what's happening in my house right now. Or that's what I'm telling myself.

Tiff Carson (51:24)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (51:44)
And it's not fair to tell myself that, or I'm not the only one thinking I obviously resonate with the idea of like, when you're going through it and then having this, I had the exact same revelation when I was in the thick of my thing. was like, this needs to be a podcast. Everybody seems to have a podcast right now, but it's like, this needs to be a podcast because people...

Tiff Carson (52:02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (52:09)
People need to feel connected. What I love though about your journey in particular is that you took that moment, that moment that was a very, it wasn't just a brief moment. It was a very long moment of you sitting in your closet and you did have a decision to make and you chose life and you chose purpose.

Tiff Carson (52:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (52:37)
and you chose yourself. And I've had my doctors say it to me a million times and it's still hard to accept, but like that's the greatest gift you could have ever given your children is taking care of yourself.

Tiff Carson (52:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. It sure is. And I've continued to do it, obviously, and I show them all the time how important it is to not just take care of yourself, but to be vulnerable and to admit when things are not going well and to feel safe to be vulnerable.

Chelsea Myers (53:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. There needs to be so much more of that.

Tiff Carson (53:19)
And yeah,

just giving them that safety of this is where you can share your hardest truths with me and you will not be judged ever.

Chelsea Myers (53:32)
No.

And your kids are much older now. You've got teens, you've got a teen and, and

Tiff Carson (53:40)
16

year old and almost 12 year old boys.

Chelsea Myers (53:45)
is what is life like in your home now? Where are you guys at now?

Tiff Carson (53:50)
Well, like I said, in that closet, in that moment, I didn't think I was going to make it. honestly, neither did my ex-husband. We were both like, no, this is going to end us. And all I kept thinking is, maturity will help. Like them getting older will help. And it absolutely has.

Chelsea Myers (54:07)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tiff Carson (54:17)
and our kids are so

so beautiful and like they they are they each have their own personalities there are moments where they get into like big loud fights like they did when they were little and it kind of like ptsd like my god no no no no let's not go back there nope but no it's it's way more enjoyable

Chelsea Myers (54:33)
Yeah

Tiff Carson (54:45)
And I'm not saying it will happen for everybody. I don't want to make a generalized statement, but for us, it did get easier and it has gotten easier. but with that said, there was a lot of work that went into that and a lot of strategies and a lot of working with professionals and a lot of

talking. And it didn't happen by avoiding the fact that our kids were neuro spicy and had things that were different than other kids. Because I do know some people that I know closely who have kids that are clearly neuro spicy, have something and they're ignoring it. And that is

Chelsea Myers (55:21)
Yeah

Tiff Carson (55:41)
heartbreaking for me because when you can honor that part of your child and let them know that that is something so special in you and have the strategies in place to deal with some of the stuff that comes up in schools and in sports and at home and all of the things that they're going to experience in life.

Having those strategies is what has made the difference for us. And it wasn't ignoring it, it wasn't avoiding it, it was dealing with it and knowing that there is nothing wrong with your child.

Chelsea Myers (56:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (56:28)
nothing.

It actually makes them beautiful.

Chelsea Myers (56:33)
now I'm getting emotional. ⁓ I just so as a parent of a very neuro spicy family as someone who is neuro diverse themselves and as someone who I worked in intensive needs special education for 10 years, I want to acknowledge

And thank you for choosing to see the beauty in the chaos. And again, just like we talked about early on in this conversation, it doesn't mean you liked every second of it. It didn't mean there were days when you didn't like your kids. There are days when I do not like my kids. It doesn't mean it's not hard, but making the choice to say, this is

This is beyond your control, but this is part of who you are. And we are going to work every day to make sure that you get the best life possible and that you get to be you and that you are accepted for you. That's a choice. You made that choice. And I just want to like give you...

Like I want to wrap you up in the biggest virtual hug and I want to thank you on behalf of parents and educators who are working with these kids. Like that's not an easy decision to make at all.

Tiff Carson (58:07)
No,

it wasn't. Sorry, I'm very emotional. Because it was a really hard, really hard journey. One that still has that I'm working through, But I know that

Chelsea Myers (58:10)
No.

Yeah.

Tiff Carson (58:32)
Every time I tell the story, every time I share it, it's healing me even more. Every single time. And these tears are not tears of sadness. They are my healing tears.

and I call them salve from my heart because it's just, they're falling off my face and onto my heart and they're just like, you're good, you're going

Chelsea Myers (58:53)
I love that.

Yeah. And again, reinforcing, reinforcing to anyone listening, I this, I try my hardest not to make these sessions about me at all. But when something resonates, it's hard to not acknowledge it. And for me, I struggle with silver linings. And I know that that's something that's important to you.

Tiff Carson (59:24)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (59:28)
But I think where it becomes less of a, like, I don't disagree with you and I don't, and more of a like, yeah, actually, we are on the same page is like, it can really, really suck. And you can be really, really mad and still be thankful for your children, be thankful for your life and be grateful that you have the opportunity.

to walk this journey with them. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiff Carson (59:59)
Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

It can suck hard. And yet.

Chelsea Myers (1:00:05)
It can suck so

hard. Yes. Yes. There's always and not like, let's try like I try to avoid but and I put an and yeah. yes, yes. ⁓ so I kind of want to bring us full circle a little bit. I mentioned this a lot to my guests, like I get to a point in an episode where I feel like the sigh.

Tiff Carson (1:00:11)
and

Me too. Yep. The power of the end.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (1:00:33)
And I

feel like we're getting, right? Like that big breath, like that sigh. And I have this habit, I have one of two questions that I usually ask. I don't like either of them for you. I mean, because they're too simple, I feel like for this conversation. And I think instead like...

Tiff Carson (1:00:35)
Yeah.

haha

Chelsea Myers (1:00:56)
How do I even want to word it? It's a good thing I edit my own episodes, right?

Tiff Carson (1:01:01)
Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (1:01:04)
you've talked about it so much. You're embodying it. You're authentic about it and you're honest about it. You have your own podcast with listeners. Please check out, please listen to, especially if you're in a situation like this or similar or completely different, but just have these feelings. I think what I'd like to know is yes, you walked a path that was dark.

and twisty and yucky and you did not deserve to be plopped onto that path but you were.

And today, the path isn't as dark, still a little twisty, still a little rocky. What do you hope that people listening to your story take away from where you are in this moment today?

Tiff Carson (1:01:58)
What I hope that people know is that...

you can heal from life's toughest moments in that there is possibility of being happy and being okay and being grateful for all of those moments that you experienced in your life, that it is, you can be grateful for it and that you will heal and that

All of those moments of, I call them heartbreak. Heartbreak from not being able to have a baby naturally. Heartbreak from not getting the parenting journey that I was shown growing up and like or heartbreak from my marriage ending. Heartbreak from losing somebody. If you know that you can get through it, it does provide

that light, that there is possibility of getting through it and being happy. And that is happening for me.

Chelsea Myers (1:03:02)
Yeah.

I'm so thankful that that's happening for you. And I really, really truly hope that anyone who is in that dark, twisty, yucky place right now can hold on to that because it can feel eternal. It can feel never ending. But making the choice like you made Tiff to say, I'm going to hold on. I'm going to try again. I'm going to one more day, one more time, one more breath, one more step.

Tiff Carson (1:03:20)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (1:03:34)
and I'm so thankful that you stayed. And I'm so thankful that I got to meet you and that I got to experience your story. And I'm thankful that you're spreading awareness and support for other families as well. So yeah, just.

Tiff Carson (1:03:48)
Thank you. Thank you for

having me and having this community because it is so important for people to have these spaces to feel safe and to feel less alone. So thank you.

Chelsea Myers (1:04:07)
Thank you so much, Tiff, for this deeply personal and incredibly important conversation. Your story is a powerful reminder that we are not alone in our struggles and that seeking help can be one of the bravest things you'll ever do. I hope Tiff's vulnerability inspires you to connect with others, prioritize your mental wellbeing, and embrace the messy, beautiful journey of motherhood. If you resonated with Tiff's story,

Please share this episode with someone who might need to hear it. You can keep up with us on Quiet Connection by following us on Facebook, Instagram, Red Note, YouTube, and Threads at Quiet Connection Podcast. You can also find us on Blue Sky at Quiet Connection Pod. You can help our community grow by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider sharing our episodes on social media.

Be sure to check out our Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee accounts to support our mission and get exclusive access to bonus episodes and other goodies. To share your personal journey, you can contact us through our website at quietconnectionpodcast.com or by email at quietconnectionppmh at gmail.com. Join us next time when another story is told and you realize you are not alone. I see you.